1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 ------------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 8 ------------------------------------x 9 10 November 1, 2001 Start: 10:20 a.m. 11 Recess: 4:40 p.m. 12 City Hall Council Chambers 13 New York, New York 14 B E F O R E: 15 STANLEY MICHELS 16 Chairperson, 17 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Bill Perkins 18 Helen Marshall John Sabini 19 Kathryn Freed Tracy Boyland 20 Adolpho Carrion Morton Povman 21 22 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 217 Broadway - Suite 511 25 New York, New York 10007 (800) 756-3410 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 C. Virginia Fields 4 Manhattan Borough President 5 Diana Chapin First Deputy Commissioner 6 NYC Department of Environmental Protection 7 Robert Avaltroni Deputy Commissioner 8 NYC Department of Environmental Protection 9 Dr. Robert Johnson Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease 10 Jessica Leighton, Ph.D 11 Assistant Commissioner Environmental Risk Assessment 12 NYC Department of Health 13 Mary Ellen Kris Regional Director 14 NYS Department of Environmental Conservation 15 Pat Clarke Regional Administrator, New York Region 16 US OSHA 17 Kathy Callahan Region 2 Office 18 US EPA 19 Bob Adams Director 20 Environmental Health And Safety NYC Department of Design and Construction 21 Joel R. Kupferman 22 Executive Director New York Environmental Law and Justice Project 23 Monona Rossol 24 Industrial Hygienist President 25 Arts, Crafts And Theater Safety Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Nicole Pollier 4 Legal Intern Equality Concentration Program 5 CUNY Law School 6 George D. Thurston, Sc.D. Associate Professor 7 New York University School of Medicine 8 Patrick Kinney Associate Professor 9 Division of Environmental Health Sciences Columbia University School of Public Health 10 Paolo Toniolo, MD 11 Professor of Epidemiology New York University School of Medicine 12 Associate Director for Population Science NYU Cancer Institute 13 Jo Wiederhorn 14 Deputy Director, Director of Operations New York University School of Medicine 15 Institute for Urban and Global Health 16 Alan J. Gerson 17 Marc Ameruso 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 4 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Good morning, 3 and welcome to today's hearing on the City Council's 4 Committee on Environmental Protection. 5 I am Council Member Stanley Michels, 6 Chair of the Committee. 7 Today we will explore the 8 environmental impacts on Lower Manhattan resulting 9 from the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center 10 that occurred on September 11th. 11 Before I proceed to the substance of 12 this hearing, I would like to extend condolences to 13 the families of the victims. 14 I know that I speak on behalf of my 15 fellow Committee members and the Council in saying 16 that we join our fellow New Yorkers, and all 17 America, in our outrage and deep sadness over what 18 has transpired on September 11th. 19 This despicable, inhumane act was not 20 simply an attack against the United States, but 21 against civilized people all over the world. The 22 events of that day have changed our lives and have 23 left an indelible mark on us all. 24 We also pay tribute to the many 25 heroic firefighters, police officers, emergency Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 5 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 service workers, and others who saved thousands of 3 lives, as well as the brave men and women working 4 every day at ground zero. 5 This hearing is meant to gather 6 information and achieve clarity on environmental 7 issues as they relate to those who reside and work 8 in Lower Manhattan, and to the workers engaged in 9 the ongoing clean-up of the World Trade Center site, 10 only a few blocks from where we meet today. 11 There has been an abundance of 12 opinions from experts, lay people and the media with 13 respect to the state of the environment in Lower 14 Manhattan. Much of that information appears to be 15 contradictory, or at best, incomplete. 16 Critical health issues have included 17 the quality of the air and water, the 18 comprehensiveness of the testing that has been 19 conducted and the general impact of the debris 20 removal and clean-up procedures caused by such 21 things as increased truck traffic and street 22 cleaning. 23 The most disturbing environmental 24 concern has been the quality of the air, as 25 evidenced by the reports of discomfort and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 6 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 sicknesses allegedly caused by exposure to air 3 contaminants in the area surrounding the World Trade 4 Center site. In fact, many residents of the area 5 have been reluctant to return to their homes. 6 The Committee's goal for today's 7 hearing is to attempt to ascertain answers to the 8 many questions raised concerning what methods of 9 testing have been utilized, how often such tests 10 have been performed and what substances were tested 11 for, detected and at what levels. 12 These results should include both the 13 substances jettisoned into the air by the actual 14 wreckage of the World Trade Center, as well as any 15 additional hazardous materials resulting from the 16 clean-up and removal activities underway at the 17 site. 18 The ultimate goal of this Committee 19 is to ascertain whether the environment in Lower 20 Manhattan is safe for individuals in or close to 21 that area, and if not, what can be done to protect 22 them. 23 I am pleased to welcome 24 representatives of the Environmental Protection 25 Agency, the Occupational Safety and Health Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 7 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Administration, the New York State Department of 3 Environmental Conservation, the New York City 4 Department of Environmental Protection, Health and 5 Sanitation, the Office of Emergency Management and 6 the New York City Board of Education. 7 Senior staff of all of these agencies 8 have agreed to take time out of their vitally 9 important schedules to present testimony today. 10 Their presence is much appreciated. 11 Unfortunately, due to the anticipated 12 length of this hearing, and a participation of 13 government agencies, as well as medical and 14 environmental experts, there may very well be 15 insufficient time and opportunity to hear everyone 16 who would like to testify today. However, this 17 Committee recognizes the importance of public input 18 and participation. Therefore, I wish to announce 19 that a follow-up hearing will be held on Thursday, 20 November 8th. That's Thursday, November 8th, at 21 10:00 a.m. in the Council Chambers, at which time 22 further comment will be welcome and considered. 23 I know that everyone assembled in 24 this room today has the same objective - to ensure 25 that the air that we breathe and the water we drink Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 8 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 is as safe as possible. 3 I want to thank everyone for their 4 attendance, participation and interest in these 5 issues. 6 Additionally, I want to encourage the 7 obvious, that everyone from government agencies, to 8 the private individuals, strive to work together to 9 ensure the safe and healthy quality of Lower 10 Manhattan's environment at this critical time. Such 11 cooperation is the best way to ensure the health of 12 everyone affected. 13 At this time I would like to call as 14 our first witness, Manhattan Borough President C. 15 Virginia Fields, who has shown great leadership in 16 responding to this issue. She will be followed by a 17 panel of officials in the federal, state and City 18 agencies that are involved in all of the ongoing 19 activities in the vicinity of the World Trade 20 Center. 21 Borough President, will you please 22 take your seat. 23 BOROUGH PRESIDENT FIELDS: Thank you, 24 Council Member Michels, and members of the 25 Environmental Oversight Committee. First, let me Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 9 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 thank you for convening this hearing in such a very 3 timely manner, because clearly we are all 4 confronting a number of unknowns and a great deal of 5 concern and discussion about how to deal with the 6 extraordinary environmental issues arising as we 7 enter this new phase. 8 Let me say that my staff and I have 9 attended numerous meetings and forums with 10 residents, business leaders, parents, landlords, and 11 they all have bombarded the professionals in 12 attendance with questions about dust, fumes and the 13 overall air quality with respect to its impact on 14 short term, as well as long-term basis. And I would 15 just say, suffice it to say, there is a serious lack 16 of confidence in much of the information that thus 17 far has been provided, so, your hearing today I'm 18 hopeful will provide much more clarity and answers 19 to questions that the public desperately desires and 20 I know we all want to make available. 21 In order to have a better idea of how 22 health problems are being addressed, I convened a 23 panel of environmental and medical experts, some of 24 whom are here today and will be speaking. Leading 25 experts from our universities here, from private Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 10 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 firms, as well as public environmental groups. 3 And, of course, they talked with us 4 about a number of the problems and the complaints 5 that you received from residents, as well as I 6 received from some of the staff in my office 7 considering that we work down in this area, too. 8 That's to be expected. 9 But of great concern, and I'm hopeful 10 will be one of the issues you address today, is how 11 information is made available to professionals in a 12 complete and timely manner, so that our best 13 environmental, scientific and medical professionals 14 have as much well organized data as is available, 15 and these facts will enable them to work along with 16 our governmental entities to draw warranted 17 conclusions about the possible health effects from 18 breathing the air downtown. 19 You did address, accurately so, what 20 is happening with many of the residents in the area. 21 We now know that not all of the 30,000 or so people 22 who were evacuated from Battery Park, Gateway, 23 Independence Plaza and the surrounding areas, we now 24 know that all of them are not planning to return to 25 their apartments and many of them have made it known Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 11 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 it is because of concerns not knowing what is 3 happening with respect to air quality and many of 4 them having small children, so this is of paramount 5 concern to them. 6 We are also concerned and focusing on 7 the health hazards of our seniors who live in the 8 area, so making information available to 9 environmental experts, many who are involved now 10 with air testing, either as a part of public testing 11 or private testing, I think will go a long way, 12 because we are at a stage where it is in everyone's 13 interest to coordinate not only the oversight of the 14 clean-up efforts, but our means of informing the 15 public as to the nature of the work and the 16 conditions at the site, and I know this will go a 17 long way in building confidence. 18 The second point that I'd like to 19 make is, it is imperative that one agency, possibly 20 the City's Department of Environmental Protection, 21 or the federal Environmental Protection Agency, take 22 oversight of the recovery, and the agency would be 23 responsible for the environmental aspects of the 24 contractor's work in performing the clean-up and 25 removing the debris, it would have sole Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 12 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 responsibility for establishing clean-up protocols 3 on the off-site, power to ensure and enforce 4 compliance, and act as the public information 5 clearinghouse. 6 And I make a point of this because I 7 think at this stage, again, it is important that 8 ultimate decision-making be clear and focused. At 9 this point it is possible to receive information 10 from a variety of agencies, EPA, DEP, OEM, and 11 others, with respect to questions and concerns that 12 continue to be raised around air quality. 13 Let me express just briefly my 14 reasons for this approach. First of all, we know 15 that the Environmental Protection Agencies already 16 installed 17 air quality monitoring devices. The 17 Coast Guard Station at Battery Park is the southern 18 most location. Pier 25 at Harrison and West Streets 19 is the northern most location. Pace University Plaza 20 at the Brooklyn Bridge is on the East, Duane and 21 Church Street is on the west, and depending on how 22 the wind blows in a direction, the humidity 23 flare-ups on sites and other variables, air quality 24 frequently changes, and we have a reports of a smell 25 from the site carrying even further north. And in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 13 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the surrounding area we also need to be able to 3 determine the most efficient and adhere to methods 4 of removing debris from buildings, roofs, as well as 5 cleaning buildings, facades and interiors. And what 6 we are finding out is, the approach seems to be 7 different, depending on how is doing it, and we 8 believe that with one agency that carries the 9 responsibility for moving forward in this way will 10 be helpful as we move forward of addressing all of 11 the concerns, as well as building the public 12 confidence. 13 We've heard many complaints about the 14 trucks removing debris from the site. Ideally we 15 know that the contents should be containerized. At 16 minimal the debris should be watered down and 17 securely covered to prevent the escape of dust and 18 other irritants. Again, as residents and as other 19 governmental officials have addressed this, it's 20 been done but not on a consistent basis that ensures 21 the confidence and ensures the accountability that 22 we think is needed. 23 So, I think that we all agree that 24 air quality problems may arise in the future, and 25 that in many ways we're having to address it as we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 14 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 go along, but today's hearing I think will go a long 3 way in addressing those concerns because I think we 4 all have the same goal - improving air quality, 5 short term and long term, ensuring the public of the 6 confidence in the work that is being done, and I 7 think, Mr. Chairman, you, and the members of this 8 Committee, can certainly answer these questions and 9 more. 10 So, I commend you, and I look forward 11 to working with you to coordinate these efforts and 12 to work with our residents to assure them that we're 13 doing all that we can and that we will continue and 14 that we will make information available in a timely, 15 coordinated fashion so that everyone is clear and 16 understand where we are and that we will continue to 17 work on behalf, rather in an effort to address this 18 terrible, terrible problem that has now been placed 19 upon all of us. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I want to thank 21 you very much for your very well-organized,well- 22 thought-out statement. 23 I also want to congratulate you for 24 the leadership you have shown since September 11th. 25 BOROUGH PRESIDENT FIELDS: Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 15 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I know because I 3 have worked with you and have seen you are caring, 4 you are compassionate and what you've done. A lot of 5 people have received a lot of notices for what they 6 have done, but a lot of us who have worked with you 7 see how you were down there, you've been taking 8 leadership from the Council members and from the 9 community boards, and you've shown and put together 10 this panel, you have shown great leadership and 11 exhibited why many of us are so supportive of the 12 work that you do, and I'm thankful. 13 BOROUGH PRESIDENT FIELDS: Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I'm very 15 glad you came here today, because I think you put in 16 perspective that which we're all trying to find out 17 and what we're doing here today. 18 Thank you. 19 BOROUGH PRESIDENT FIELDS: Thank you, 20 Mr. Councilman. And good luck on the meeting, I look 21 forward to the results. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Diane. Thank you 23 very much, Commissioner Chapin, I appreciate your 24 presence. 25 Next we're going to have a panel, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 16 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 we have here in front of us, Pat Clarke from US 3 OSHA, Office of Occupational Safety Health and 4 Administration, right? And that's you. Raise your 5 hand so everybody can see who you are. Very good. 6 Now we have Mary Ellen Kris, my old 7 friend from the Department of Environmental 8 Conservation of the State, and then we have Bob 9 Adams of the New York City DDC, and Dr. Jessica 10 Leighton, from the New York City Department of 11 Health. Kathy Callahan of the United Stated 12 Environmental Protection Agency, and Diana Chapin, 13 as I said before, the Environmental Protection 14 Agency. 15 I don't know who wishes to speak 16 first, but please decide amongst yourselves, and we 17 look forward anxiously to hear your testimony. 18 MS. CALLAHAN: Good morning, Mr. 19 Chairman, and members of the Committee. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Why don't you 21 pull the microphone a little bit closer. 22 MS. CALLAHAN: A little closer? 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. 24 MS. CALLAHAN: Okay. 25 I very much welcome this opportunity Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 17 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to join my state and city colleagues in a hearing 3 before you to discuss the ongoing response by the 4 Federal Environmental Protection Agency to the 5 tragic events of September 11th. 6 Joining me here from EPA this 7 morning, is Peter Brant, Chief of our 8 Intergovernmental Affairs Group, and Barry Shor, our 9 state and local government contact. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Whom are very 11 familiar to me. 12 MS. CALLAHAN: On the morning of 13 September 11th, EPA responded immediately as events 14 unfolded at the World Trade Center. 15 Our emergency response teams were on 16 the scene that day in Lower Manhattan, in Brooklyn 17 where the smoke plume was moving, and in New Jersey, 18 assessing the possible public health and 19 environmental impacts of the attacks. 20 Since September 11th, EPA and other 21 federal, state and City agencies have taken 22 literally thousands of samples of dust, air, 23 drinking water, stormwater run-off and river 24 sediments in and around the World Trade Center site. 25 We've also sampled at the Fresh Kills Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 18 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Landfill, which has been receiving debris from the 3 disaster site, and in nearby neighborhoods and in 4 New Jersey. 5 We've tested for the presence of 6 pollutants such as asbestos, fine particulate 7 matter, lead, volatile organic compounds, dioxins, 8 benzene, metals, PCBs and other chemicals and 9 substances that could pose a threat to the public 10 and workers at the site. 11 Fortunately, the vast majority of our 12 tests find levels of these contaminants that pose no 13 significant long-term health risks to residents, 14 business employees and visitors beyond ground zero. 15 And despite recent press accounts, which suggested 16 otherwise, these findings have not changed. 17 In fact, environmental conditions off 18 the site have improved in recent weeks. 19 While this news may be reassuring to 20 the public, it is important to emphasize that the 21 risks are different for the response workers at the 22 World Trade Center site, who are working long hours, 23 in often very smoky and dusty conditions. That is 24 why we have repeatedly said that workers at the site 25 should wear respirators and other protective Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 19 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 equipment. 3 EPA and other agencies have provided 4 thousands of respirators and other gear to the 5 response workers at the site. We have set up washing 6 stations at which workers can wash off and change 7 into clean clothing before going home. Signs 8 directing workers to wear protective gear are posted 9 at our wash stations. 10 I know that many lower Manhattan 11 residents and employees of businesses in the area 12 have felt the effects of the smoke still coming from 13 the fires at the site. The odors can be intense, 14 depending on the strength of the fires and the 15 weather, and as you will hear I believe later from 16 various health officials here, the particulate 17 matter from the plume can be irritating to your 18 eyes, nose and throat. It can cause more serious 19 reaction in sensitive populations, such as people 20 with respiratory problems or asthma, according to 21 health officials. But it doesn't cause any 22 irreversible health effects, to the best of our 23 knowledge. 24 I'm sure that many of you saw the 25 Daily News headlines last Friday heralding a toxic Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 20 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 zone at ground zero. While the data in the story 3 were accurate, that interpretation of the data and 4 the context wasn't. 5 The Daily News focused on a number, a 6 small number of sampling results with the highest 7 contaminant readings. The paper failed to report, 8 however, that EPA has taken thousands of samples 9 that do not exceed federal standards or guidelines. 10 In addition, the sampling results 11 highlighted in the article are snapshots of the 12 levels of certain chemicals associated with burning, 13 such as benzene, dioxins and sulfur dioxide, but at 14 a moment in time. Often they were taken right on the 15 debris pile at ground level. Some were even taking, 16 using probes placed into the pile. 17 EPA and the Occupational Safety and 18 Health Administration standards are set many times 19 below the level at which you would expect health 20 impacts. 21 Our results tell us that these 22 chemicals are present at ground zero, at levels that 23 sometimes exceed a federal standard. Again, taking 24 the most protective approach, we continue to urge 25 workers to wear their respirators and other Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 21 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 protective equipment. 3 People living and working in the area 4 should take comfort in the fact that EPA air samples 5 of pollutants, such as benzene, dioxin and sulfur 6 dioxide taken at the perimeter of the work site, and 7 in the areas around Lower Manhattan, are either very 8 low or non-detectable. 9 These pollutants are often found in 10 the urban environment as a result of vehicle and 11 factory emissions, but with the fire still burning 12 at ground zero, it is not surprising that these 13 levels are higher the closer one gets to the World 14 Trade Center site. But when the plume of smoke 15 rises out of the site, it quickly disperses into the 16 wind, concentrations of any chemicals in the smoke 17 are greatly reduced. Sensitive groups, those with 18 asthma or other respiratory problems, have been 19 advised, and we will continue to advise them, to 20 follow the New York City Health Department's advice 21 to take special precautions. 22 Now I'd like to turn to some of our 23 other findings. 24 We have found asbestos in some of our 25 air and dust samples at ground zero and surrounding Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 22 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 area. Some of the dust samples show levels above the 3 one percent, used to indicate that a material is 4 asbestos-containing. 5 To date, out of more than 1,300 air 6 samples taken at about 26 air monitoring stations in 7 and around the site, only 30 samples had levels of 8 asbestos that exceeded the Asbestos Hazard Emergency 9 Response Act, or AHERA standards, which we use to 10 determine if children can re-enter a school building 11 after asbestos has been removed or abated. It is a 12 stringent and protective standard. With one 13 exception on October 9th, the last time we recorded 14 a level above the school re-entry standard was 15 September 30th. 16 Keep in mind also, that the levels of 17 asbestos we have found do not imply an immediate 18 health threat. Asbestos exposure becomes a health 19 concern when high concentrations of asbestos filters 20 are inhaled -- fibers, excuse me -- are inhaled over 21 a long period of time, illness is very unlikely to 22 result from a single high level exposure or from a 23 short period of exposure to lower levels. 24 We do know that some people returning 25 to area homes and businesses are finding very dusty Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 23 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 environments. If you find that your home or office 3 has dust or debris from the collapse, you should 4 follow the recommendations of the New York City 5 Department of Health and Environmental Protection in 6 how to clean up properly. 7 Where we have found elevated levels 8 of asbestos in Lower Manhattan, or where we have 9 gotten reports of dusty conditions, EPA has been 10 using our large HEPA vacuum truck to pick up the 11 dust, to clean sidewalks, the promenade at Battery 12 Park City, local playgrounds and parks and even 13 children's sandboxes. 14 The New York State Department of 15 Environmental Conservation has been monitoring for 16 fine particulates, that is those smaller than 2.5 17 microns, at their existing network of monitoring 18 sites. 19 DEC and EPA have added three 20 additional stations in lower Manhattan, and are 21 working on adding a couple of others. To date, with 22 a few exceptions, the levels of fine particulates 23 has been below the level of concern for the general 24 public, as well as the level of concern for groups 25 more sensitive to air pollutants. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 24 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 In addition to air and dust sampling, 3 we also tested drinking water and water quality in 4 the Hudson, and East Rivers. All samples of drinking 5 water which were tested for a wide range of 6 contaminants had levels below federal standards. 7 Analysis of run-off following heavy 8 rain on September 14th did show some elevated levels 9 PCBs and other pollutants, but follow-up sampling on 10 several occasions, however, found levels back to 11 those normally found in the area's waters. 12 I know we'll go into greater detail 13 during the question and answer period, but I would 14 like to touch on one additional topic. We are all 15 committed to sharing in results of all data with the 16 public, and helping people understand what they 17 mean. 18 All of the agencies share our data 19 and use it to assess the risks to workers and the 20 public and to develop approaches to any identified 21 threats. 22 EPA has taken the lead in making the 23 data available to the public through our web site. 24 Quite a bit of it is already up on our site, 25 www.epa.gov, along with a daily summary of our Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 25 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 findings. All of our data is available at a public 3 information repository at our offices at 290 4 Broadway. 5 Response workers and the people of 6 New York have been through much uncertainty and 7 tremendous anxiety. We hope that our findings will 8 help to allay concerns about their health and their 9 environment. Be assured that we will be vigilant in 10 our ongoing monitoring efforts. 11 In closing, Mr. Chairman, on behalf 12 of all of us in the Regional Office of EPA, I would 13 like to thank you for being a leader in 14 environmental stewardship during your tenure as 15 chair of this Committee. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. I 18 wanted to say, I do have many questions for you, 19 based on your statement and other things that we 20 have come up with, we will hold asking those 21 questions until everybody has an opportunity to 22 testify. 23 MS. CALLAHAN: Very good. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Commissioner 25 Chapin, are you next? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 26 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 3 Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Welcome. 5 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 6 Thank you very much, Chairman Michels. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's always a 8 pleasure to have you in front of us. 9 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 10 Thank you very much. I would like to echo Kathy -- 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sorry the 12 Commissioner can't be here. 13 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 14 Yes. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But we are 16 always pleased that you are here. Please give our 17 very best. We understand why he cannot be here. 18 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: I 19 was going to say on behalf of Commissioner Miele, 20 that I want to thank you for the opportunity to 21 appear and also echo what Kathy Callahan just said, 22 that you have provided a terrific and very forceful 23 environmental leadership throughout your tenure and 24 we really appreciate that. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 27 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: We, 3 too, want to protect the environment. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 5 much. 6 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: As 7 you said earlier, or other speakers have said, this 8 is a very complex and difficult endeavor before us, 9 and that's reflected in the number of people and the 10 agencies that are represented here today. 11 I want to assure yourself and the 12 public that there has been a very team-oriented 13 approach from day one with regard to our approach to 14 the environmental and health issues surrounding 15 World Trade Center disaster. 16 DEP has taken almost 1,000 samples to 17 date, since September 12th at about 37 stations near 18 the World Trade Center area. 19 And as early as September 12th, 20 basically, we began to work together, meeting daily 21 to discuss environmental health issues. 22 These overall coordinating meetings 23 continue to this day. They are occurring now about 24 three times a week, but there are many, many 25 discussions and meetings, individual meetings Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 28 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 between the agencies on an individual basis that 3 take place in an individual basis. 4 So, we are constantly monitoring the 5 health and environmental issues and the reports and 6 data that we're getting from the sites. 7 The focus of these coordinating 8 meetings was to set up monitoring networks that 9 could provide appropriate and relevant data to guide 10 measures that could be taken to protect the public 11 health and to establish standards and protocols for 12 monitoring. 13 In the interest of a coordinated 14 response, we reviewed the technical resources each 15 agency had to offer, since, obviously, each of those 16 agencies provides a different expertise. And we 17 agreed on the parameters that we should be looking 18 for, and came to a consensus on the frequency, 19 duration and location of sampling, and in fact, 20 there were many other agencies, at present, in 21 addition to our own, even CDC, for example, NIOSH, 22 who are not at this panel today. 23 In those cases where there were no 24 established standards for monitoring a particular 25 substance in this type of incident, the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 29 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 environmental and health officials agreed to adopt a 3 standard which was strictly protective, such as one 4 using the endorsed standard for air, outdoor air 5 sampling of asbestos. 6 All the agencies involved in this 7 joint effort, including DEP, have now submitted 8 their data to EPA for coordination, and EPA 9 maintains a web site with updated information and 10 sampling, as Ms. Callahan just stated. 11 We have also posted the data 12 collected on asbestos by DEP on DEP's web site. 13 The data that all the agencies have 14 collected has been evaluated by EPA and NYC 15 Department of Health, and as you will hear, levels 16 of contaminants in air and dust are not high enough 17 or of sufficient duration to cause long-term health 18 effects. 19 Since the initial period, the health 20 and environmental officials have continuously 21 reviewed and discussed data, as the areas around the 22 World Trade Center were reopened to the public, to 23 make sure that all standards of the Environmental 24 and Health agencies were being met and to address 25 any potential worker health and safety issues at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 30 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 ground zero. 3 Discussions of the Health and 4 Environmental Agencies are now focused on what kind 5 of monitoring network should be kept in place over a 6 long period of time. 7 We look forward to hearing your views 8 on the issues, and we'll certainly consider those 9 views as we proceed. 10 Our presentation this morning has 11 three parts. First I will present an overview of 12 environmental monitoring, and then Dr. Jessica 13 Leighton from the New York City Department of Health 14 will discuss her agency's role in the monitoring 15 program, as well as their analysis of health 16 impacts. 17 Mary Ellen Kris from State DEC would 18 like to give some brief remarks on the role of State 19 DEC and then the regional administrator, Patricia 20 Clarke, of United States Department of Laborers 21 Occupational Health and Safety Administration will 22 present the efforts of her agency in ensuring the 23 health and safety of workers. 24 Parts of this presentation are 25 contained in approximately 40 powerpoint slides. We Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 31 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 will try and keep our presentation very succinct so 3 that we may finish our presentation and get to your 4 questions as early as possible. I believe mine is 5 the shortest, Mr. Chairman. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Proceed. 7 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 8 Thank you. 9 Okay, what we're going to present 10 briefly is an overview of air quality and health who 11 is doing environmental -- 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Would you move 13 the mic a little closer, your voice is being 14 muffled. 15 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 16 Sorry. Better? 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. We want to 18 make sure -- can everybody hear properly? Everybody 19 hears okay? Fine. 20 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: I 21 was concerned before there might be echoing. Thank 22 you, Mr. Chairman. 23 We will be presenting an overview of 24 air quality and health, who is doing environmental 25 sampling, what has been done so far, what have been Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 32 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the results, what is planned for the future, and a 3 summary of air quality and health, and we're going 4 to go into all of this in great detail as each of 5 the agencies presents its report. 6 The New York City -- 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I should say at 8 the outset, I'm appreciative of the coordinated 9 testimony that you evidently worked very hard on 10 presenting with all of the other agencies. I feel 11 very appreciative. 12 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 13 Thank you very much. I want to say that all of us 14 have, as we expressed before, had an unbelievably 15 good cooperation, a very, very positive experience 16 in working with all the agencies. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Long may it 18 continue. 19 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 20 Yes. It doesn't always run as smoothly perhaps when 21 you try to deal with several different levels of 22 government in several different agencies, but it 23 really has been terrific cooperation. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We have a very 25 important goal, the protection of the people of this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 33 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 City. 3 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 4 Yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree. And I believe that 5 that's helped the process. 6 New York City, the agencies are: The 7 Department of Environmental Protection; the 8 Department of Health; the Department of Design and 9 Construction; and the Board of Education. 10 New York State: The Department of 11 Environmental Conservation; and the Department of 12 Health. 13 On the federal level: The United 14 States Environmental Protection Agency; the United 15 States Occupational Safety and Health 16 Administration; the Centers for Disease Control; the 17 National Institute for Occupational Safety and 18 Health; and the Agency for Toxic Substances and 19 Disease Registry. 20 All of those agencies have conducted 21 some sampling, each of them in different materials. 22 What has been sampled so far? Outdoor 23 air. Also, dust and debris, both outdoors and 24 indoors -- and we will get to who did which kinds of 25 sampling shortly -- run-off water and sediment. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 34 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The major substances being monitored, 3 this is one of the questions the Committee had, are: 4 - Asbestos, which you can say is DEP 5 and EPA. 6 - Particulate matter less than 10 7 microns, is DEC. 8 - Particulate matter less than 2.5 9 microns (DEC). 10 - Crystalline Silica (OSHA). 11 - Lead is OSHA. 12 - Carbon monoxide (OSHA and DEP). 13 - Hydrogen Sulfide (EPA and DEP). 14 - Cyanide (EPA and DEP). 15 - Nitric Oxide (EPA). 16 - Volatile organic compounds (EPA, 17 OSHA, DOH, DEP). 18 - Phosgene (DEP). 19 - PCBs (EPA, DEP). 20 - Dioxins (EPA). 21 - Sulfur Dioxide (EPA, DEC). 22 - Ozone (DEC). 23 - Other metals (EPA and DEP). And 24 obviously, we have a list of the other metals. 25 This is a bit like a water quality Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 35 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 sampling, in that we sample for any substance that 3 we think might be present, and I don't want to alarm 4 the public that with some of the substances 5 mentioned that there were high levels present or 6 something, it's just that we were sampling to assure 7 that these substances were not present in a level 8 that would be a problem for our health or regulatory 9 concern. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I notice that 11 fiberglass is not on the list, is there any reason 12 for that? 13 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 14 Crystalline Silica I think would -- particulate 15 matter, yes, would reflect that. We will get to that 16 later on in the presentation. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In other words 18 it's on another matter? It's included -- 19 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: It 20 would be reflected -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: On another 22 classification. 23 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: By 24 measurement, correct. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Which one would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 36 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that be? Crystalline silica? 3 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 4 It's the particulate matter. I was just asking which 5 micron test. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's not 7 Crystalline silica? 8 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 9 Dust is the silica. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You will find 11 out and let me know which one it is? 12 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 13 Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 15 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 16 We're going to address that when we get to it. Sorry 17 about that. 18 It's not something obviously we 19 monitor. 20 The sampling locations, we have the 21 maps up here, unfortunately we are not able to put 22 them up on the powerpoint because they've got too 23 much data. There's an EPA map up here, a DEP map, 24 and a DEC map, which reflect all of the air 25 monitoring stations, their locations and data as to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 37 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 what was reflected in the tests that were taken. And 3 these are available on web sites. 4 A summary of what has been found in 5 the air on site: 6 - Carbon monoxide near welders. 7 - Asbestos. 8 - Benzene in the smoke. 9 - Low levels of lead, which were 10 below levels of health or regulatory concern. 11 - Low levels of dioxins and phosgene 12 in the smoke, which were below levels of health or 13 regulatory concern. 14 Off site: 15 - There were low levels of asbestos. 16 - Low levels of lead, benzene and 17 particulates, which were below levels of health or 18 regulatory concern again. 19 A summary of what has been found in 20 the dust and debris. 21 On site: 22 - Asbestos. 23 - Low levels of PCBs. 24 - Low levels of dioxin. 25 - metals, which were below the levels Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 38 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of health or regulatory concern. 3 And an off-site sampling we found 4 asbestos and low levels of PCBs, dioxins and metals, 5 again below levels of health or regulatory concern. 6 This is a summary of what was found 7 in water, and by water we're referring now to 8 receiving waters, the Hudson River and so forth. 9 I should reiterate again, as we have 10 many times previously, from the first day of the 11 Trade Center disaster, there has never been anything 12 found in our sampling of potable water that has been 13 any different from before the disaster, and which 14 has any health concerns or any problems. 15 New York water continues at its 16 excellent level as a drinkable potable water. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: By potable, you 18 mean the drinking water? 19 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 20 Yes. The drinking water continues to be of its 21 excellent quality. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: There have been 23 some reports there was some affect in the river. 24 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 25 This is the summary -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 39 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm just making 3 a distinction between, so people understand the 4 difference between potable and the river water. 5 Thank you. 6 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 7 Yes. And the testing that I'm referring to right 8 now, a summary of what's been found in water, the 9 water in the river and sediment is: 10 - Metals and asbestos in the Hudson 11 River water, which were below levels of health or 12 regulatory concern. 13 - Dioxin in dredged Hudson River 14 sediment, which was below the levels of health or 15 regulatory concern; and 16 - Dioxin in storm water run-off, 17 which was, again, below levels of health or 18 regulatory concern. 19 Now I'm going to pass the baton to 20 Jessica Leighton from the Department of Health, to 21 talk about the health impacts of the testing and the 22 monitoring sampling that we have done to date. 23 Thank you. 24 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Good 25 morning. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 40 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Good morning. 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I am 4 Dr. Jessica Leighton, I am the Assistant 5 Commissioner for Environmental Risk Assessment at 6 the New York City Department of Health. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We welcome you, 8 and please send our best to Dr. Cohen. Tell him we 9 are glad he sent you. 10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 11 will do that. Thank you very much. 12 I appreciate having the opportunity 13 to be here today, and I'm very pleased that the 14 Committee is holding these hearings. 15 New Yorkers, especially those that 16 live, work or visit in Lower Manhattan are 17 understandably concerned about the potential health 18 impacts of the environmental conditions resulting 19 from the World Trade Center disaster, and I, myself, 20 am particularly aware of this because I actually 21 work down here, I live down here, and I have a child 22 attending public school in the neighborhood as well. 23 The environmental impact issues are 24 complex, and they are highly technical, and it's 25 important that we take every opportunity to explain Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 41 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 more fully how we are monitoring and assessing the 3 safety of our environment, and to communicate the 4 results and the implications of these findings. So, 5 I'm actually very glad to be here today. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'd like to just 7 interrupt you for a second to recognize the fact 8 that the Speaker of the City Council is here, Peter 9 Vallone, and my colleague Bill Perkins, as well, who 10 represents the neighboring district to mine in 11 Harlem. 12 Thank you. 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 14 Since the attack on the World Trade Center the City 15 Health Department has had a multifaceted role in 16 overseeing and coordinating many of the 17 health-related issues. These responsibilities have 18 included the initial coordination of worker 19 protection. 20 In the first two weeks after the 21 disaster, the Health Department provided 24 hour 22 coverage to make sure that workers had the proper 23 protective equipment. We have also been playing a 24 lead role in coordinating environmental sampling 25 plans and results and have since the second day been Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 42 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 coordinating conference calls with all the agencies 3 at this table, as well as many other agencies, 4 federal, state and local. 5 The Health Department has taken a 6 lead role in developing fact sheets, press releases 7 and community presentations to communicate risks, 8 and we've also conducted surveillance of people who 9 were injured in the attack and are doing ongoing 10 surveillance of worker injuries. 11 We've also been inspecting food 12 distribution sites and handwashing stations and have 13 been consulting on the assessment of the 14 environmental safety of the schools in the 15 community. 16 In today's hearing we're focusing on 17 the environmental monitoring and environmental 18 risks. As discussed by others, since the first day 19 of the World Trade Center disaster, the rapid and 20 the continued coordination among federal, state and 21 local agencies around the monitoring and risk 22 communication has probably been unprecedented. 23 We've been talking numerous times 24 every day, coordinating conference calls at least 25 once a day, having regular meetings at command Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 43 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 centers, et cetera, on a daily basis. 3 Many individuals were exposed to 4 smoke and dust during and after the initial collapse 5 of the World Trade Center. 6 The potential release of 7 contaminants, including asbestos, particulate 8 matter, volatile organic compounds, dioxins, PCBs, 9 metals, including lead, and other substances during 10 and after the explosion has been of concern to DOH. 11 And with the other agencies here today we've been 12 closing reviewing the numerous air quality, debris 13 sample results and personal air monitoring tests 14 that are being conducted by the various agencies. 15 The numerous potential substances of 16 concern have led to some confusion about what the 17 health effects of various substances can be. 18 Depending on the substance, the effects will differ. 19 Some substances, such as particulate matter from the 20 dust or the smoke in the air can be irritating but 21 are not expected to have long-term effects for most 22 people. 23 Once the fires have been 24 extinguished, release of chemicals such as benzene, 25 dioxins and PCBs and furans will be not a concern. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 44 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Other substances, such as asbestos, 3 are not expected to have short-term effects. If 4 exposures were high over a long period of time, 5 these substances could have long-term effects. 6 Asbestos was one of the substances of 7 greatest concern, since it was a known building 8 component in the World Trade Center. 9 However, and I don't think you can 10 see these graphs so well, but EPA so nicely prepared 11 wonderful maps which show each of the sampling sites 12 that are being sampled at for asbestos, and what you 13 probably can't see but what it is showing is that as 14 time goes, we had some spikes of asbestos in the 15 beginning, but as time has gone on, there have not 16 been levels that have gone over the standards. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Doctor, as I 18 understand it, the first 40 stories of the World 19 Trade Center utilized asbestos as insulation, which 20 it is used for, and thereafter when it was found as 21 a problem they stopped using asbestos, and we are 22 using fiberglass as insulation. 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: That 24 was my understanding, that there was only asbestos 25 in the first 40 floors, correct. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 45 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: If 4 the levels of asbestos were high for long periods of 5 time, you might have long-term health effects, but 6 what we're seeing, as we see in these graphs and 7 maps, the levels have been decreasing, and there 8 were only transient increases at various points, and 9 these are neither long-term health effects -- will 10 not lead to long-term health effects. 11 SPEAKER VALLONE: Just on that point, 12 how long is a long period of time? 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Long 14 period of time, the EPA OSHA regulation is 0.1. That 15 was calculated based on I believe a 30-year 16 exposure. We're using levels for the outdoor air, 17 and I will talk about that in a little while, of 18 0.01 which is the clearance levels for schools, 19 which is substantially obviously lower than the 0.1 20 level. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Does that have a 22 period of time also for exposure for dangerous 23 levels? 24 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: At 25 the 0.01? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 46 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I'm 4 not sure how that's calculated from an EPA point of 5 view. I think those are federal standards. But these 6 standards are very protective of health. 7 You won't see, you shouldn't see any 8 health affects at levels that are much lower than 9 what the standard is set at. 10 SPEAKER VALLONE: I think what's not 11 clear is, why don't you define what 0.1 means. The 12 number of particles in the air? Define it so that 13 the hearing would know what you're talking about. 14 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: It's 15 0.1 fibers per cubic centimeter. 16 We have some people who are actually 17 more expert in actual testing than I am. 18 SPEAKER VALLONE: Just identify 19 yourself for the record. 20 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm Kathy Callahan, 21 from the EPA Region II office. 22 It would be 0.1 fibers of material 23 that would be found on a filter of a certain size 24 which had had air pumped through it in order to try 25 to gather particles, and then is put through a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 47 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 particular, there are several types, but a 3 particular type of electron microscope so that the 4 analyst can count the number of fibers. 5 SPEAKER VALLONE: That's the technical 6 thing, but in terms of the lay person, what are you 7 talking about? If you have this amount of asbestos 8 in the air over a 30-year-period it would then lead 9 to health deterioration? Define it. 10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: To 11 asbestosis or lung cancer, yes. 12 SPEAKER VALLONE: And what was the 13 level that you found of asbestos at this location? 14 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 15 Well, these are numerous locations, I think there 16 are 17 sampling locations. The highest level was 100 17 and -- 18 MS. CALLAHAN: And eighty perhaps at 19 one site. 20 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 21 One-hundred and eighty, something like that. 22 MS. CALLAHAN: At one site. 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: At 24 one site on one day close to this, very close to 25 ground zero. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 48 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 One day is just this transient 3 increase that you can see, and it takes many days, 4 30 years, where you are likely to see an effect. 5 SPEAKER VALLONE: What is the level 6 now? 7 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The 8 levels are all below the standards now. 9 SPEAKER VALLONE: All below 0.1? 10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: No, 11 0.01. 12 SPEAKER VALLONE: 0.01. 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Yes. 14 Since October 9th, I believe, there have been no 15 levels that were over 0.01. 16 SPEAKER VALLONE: Okay. I just want to 17 make sure we put this in simple language. 18 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 19 Actually, there have been levels at above 0.01, but 20 when you use the AHERA guidelines, it's 70 21 structures, and, again, we may be able to get some 22 people who are more expert at this than I, but these 23 levels are actually in structures -- if you want 24 more information about asbestos we can have our 25 asbestos expert from DEP speak to this. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 49 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 SPEAKER VALLONE: I don't want a 3 technical analysis, I just want to know that the 4 people are safe at the present levels. 5 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 6 Since October 9th, there have not been levels that 7 exceeded the 70 structures. 8 SPEAKER VALLONE: And you are 9 testifying now that based upon the expert knowledge 10 that you have and who has given it to you, that at 11 least the level of asbestos is now in a safe level 12 in terms of the human beings in this area? 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: As 14 far as the science has shown to us right now, that 15 is actually correct, yes. 16 SPEAKER VALLONE: That's the important 17 testimony I want. Thank you very much. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In the past when 19 you decided there were unsafe levels, and in the 20 future if we come across unsafe levels, do you have 21 a protocol devised to inform the workers, the people 22 in the vicinity what they should do to protect 23 themselves? 24 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 25 Workers need to wear personal protective equipment. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 50 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I understand 3 that, but is there some way of communicating that to 4 them and telling them we have just come up with a 5 finding of a problem and that today you have to be 6 even more cautious than you usually are to make sure 7 you're protected? All of this information that 8 you're giving us is very useful from a scientific 9 point of view, but from the point of view, as the 10 Speaker has mentioned, and I want to allude to is, 11 how do we communicate this information so the people 12 are protected so they don't get harmed from it? 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 14 Right. Okay, you're talking about worker protection, 15 let me pass -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Worker 17 protection or anyone in the vicinity. 18 MR. ADAMS: Let me start with workers. 19 My name is Robert Adams, I'm the Director of 20 Environmental Health and Safety for the City of New 21 York, Department of Design and Construction. 22 Every day at 8:00 we have a safety 23 meeting where we bring in a number of people to 24 discuss what our findings have been, both safety and 25 data that is provided to us from EPA, OSHA, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 51 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 including monitoring that we do. That information, 3 if there was a problem, is conveyed to the safety 4 managers and safety directors, as well as fire and 5 other participants in the recovery operation, and 6 they are charged then to go out to their people and 7 to relay that information, so if there has, needs to 8 be a change, they can make that change. 9 We have not had to do that since we 10 began this process, which is way back, the very 11 beginning of this event. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You have not had 13 to do what? 14 MR. ADAMS: We have not had to advise 15 them to make any changes to protective equipment or 16 to advise anybody of an, if you will, unsafe air 17 condition at the debris pile or just off-site. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're talking 19 about the people who were working on the site? 20 MR. ADAMS: I'm talking about the 21 workers, yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And are they 23 using protective gear now? 24 MR. ADAMS: Yes, they are. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you feel the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 52 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 protective gear is consistent with what your 3 findings have been? 4 MR. ADAMS: Yes, it is. We are 5 continuing to use protective gear because as we 6 monitor these, we know the conditions can change, 7 but so far we have not found a changed condition 8 that will require us to modify the protective 9 equipment. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What you're 11 talking about is various testing sites, but these 12 workers are in ground zero. 13 MR. ADAMS: That is correct. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And they may 15 uncover something that suddenly comes out there, 16 maybe a spore of asbestos or some other toxic 17 substance that they may be, you may not be aware of, 18 so they should be given all protection as possible. 19 MR. ADAMS: Correct. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there anybody 21 making sure that the regulations or whatever 22 procedures are set forth are being followed through? 23 Are they wearing -- is anybody going around and 24 saying please don't take off your mask? 25 MR. ADAMS: Yes. Absolutely. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 53 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of if you do, 3 please leave? 4 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. Yes, sir, that 5 is one of our primary missions here, is to make 6 sure. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do you have 8 people in the field doing that? 9 MR. ADAMS: Twenty-four/seven. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And are people 11 being told to leave if they're not wearing their 12 protective mask? 13 MR. ADAMS: We prefer not to do that, 14 but, yes, we have had to do that and we have done 15 that. If they fail to follow the PPE requirements we 16 have asked them to leave. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because it's my 18 understanding you have about 1,000 workers down at 19 ground zero. 20 MR. ADAMS: More than that I think. 21 Yes, that's a very serious concern, and we do 22 enforce the PPE requirements. It has really improved 23 tremendously since the last several months. And I 24 would like to also refer to OSHA, because OSHA can 25 also discuss the issue that you raised about workers Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 54 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 uncovering unexpected contaminant materials. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We know that the 4 results of these tests are just a snapshot as a 5 result of that particular moment that it's being 6 tested. 7 MR. ADAMS: That's why we're testing 8 24.7 also. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: When you say 10 24/7 you mean 24 hours -- 11 MR. ADAMS: Twenty-four hours a day, 12 seven days a week -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS:-- Seven days a 14 week. 15 MR. ADAMS:-- We have people out there 16 testing. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right. 18 MR. ADAMS: That's correct. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: Mr. Chairman, 20 I just want to get a clarification. 21 The levels that they are at right now 22 as of October are safe, right? Is that what you're 23 saying, according to the scientific information that 24 you've received? 25 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 55 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 levels are safe. Not only that I just want to 3 emphasize that the few times that we found levels 4 that were unsafe are little, I guess you would say, 5 blips in asbestos readings. They are not long-term 6 exposures, and one has to really understand that 7 it's a long-term exposure that is related to adverse 8 health effects, not those little blips. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: Long-term 10 exposure is how long? 11 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The 12 calculations were based for, at least OSHA 13 standards, were based on 30-year exposure, and the 14 exposures at the levels that we're using were 15 outdoor air quality for residents, are even more 16 protective than that. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: One final 18 clarification. 19 So, the safe levels are for those who 20 wear the mask or the protective equipment or are you 21 measuring it for those who for some reason or 22 another may not wear it? 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Let 24 me clarify it. You know, we know that there was 25 asbestos at the site, there was asbestos in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 56 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 debris because there was asbestos in the building. 3 Those workers should be wearing 4 respiratory protection because they want to be 5 protected from any exposure, but even the exposures 6 that they would be getting are probably for the most 7 part, not likely to cause long-term health effects, 8 even for the workers on this site. They need to wear 9 the respiratory equipment to protect them, but even 10 those short-term exposures are unlikely to be 11 hazardous. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: If they, for 13 some reason, don't wear them? Because I know there 14 have been some folks that take them off for one 15 reason or another, right? I just want to be clear 16 that how we're measuring this, with or without the 17 mask it's safe, except for 30 years of exposure? 18 MR. ADAMS: What we're finding is that 19 right now the data does suggest that it would be 20 conceivable to work in certain areas without wearing 21 respiratory protection. However, because of the 22 dynamic nature of the site, we don't believe that 23 that's prudent at this time. That's why we believe 24 they should continue to wear respiratory protection 25 and other protective gear, but the data, the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 57 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 overwhelming preponderance of the data that we have 3 collected shows that it would be possible for the 4 workers to work without protective respirators. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: Other than 6 asbestos, for instance, with lead, has there been 7 any concerns about exposure to lead poisoning? 8 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Lead 9 levels have been really quite low. We live in an 10 urban area, there's a lot of lead around here in 11 general. The levels that have been found have for 12 the most part been very reasonable ranges. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER PERKINS: So, you've 14 measured for that, just to be on the safe side, and 15 your scientists have indicated that it's not a 16 problem? 17 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 18 That's correct. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You are aware of 20 the fact there was a firing range in these buildings 21 which used lead bullets? You are aware, and we don't 22 know if that's been reached or not, because people 23 might ask what the source of lead is, because the 24 use of lead-based paint was not in these buildings, 25 because it was outlawed since 1960. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 58 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 3 Outlawed residentially, and it's unlikely that 4 there's a lot of lead in the building. I guess even 5 if there was a firing range, which I wasn't aware 6 of, but thank you for letting us know -- 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I just was made 8 aware of that yesterday. 9 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Yes, 10 I didn't know that. Even if there was, my guess is 11 that the amount that would be contributed by those 12 bullets would even be small compared to the big 110 13 story, two buildings that collapsed. And we do know 14 that there's lead in the air and in the street dust 15 throughout New York City from previous uses of 16 leaded gasoline and from previous lead-based paint 17 used on interiors that's been deteriorating over the 18 years. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We understand. 20 Continue the presentation, I'm sorry 21 to interrupt. 22 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 23 Thank you. Okay. 24 Starting about short-term health 25 effects. Since the explosion, people living and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 59 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 working in the community have reported health 3 effects that basically should subside after the 4 fires have been finally extinguished. These health 5 effects have included acute breathing problems from 6 the initial dust and debris exposure, worsening of 7 existing respiratory disease, such as asthma, 8 irritant affects from the continued smoke and dust 9 in the air and these irritations have been mostly to 10 the eyes, the nose, the throat, as well as coughing. 11 The substances in the dust that can 12 be irritant include gypsum, mica, calcite and 13 fiberglass, which, however, have not been associated 14 with long-term health effects. 15 Other possible effects that have been 16 reported are headaches and nausea from the smoke, 17 and, finally, many people are experiencing varying 18 levels of emotional stress and anxiety. 19 Although short-term irritant health 20 effects may persist as long as the smoke and dust 21 levels are present near the site, the levels of the 22 hazardous contaminants in the air and dust in the 23 nearby neighborhoods, such as asbestos, are not 24 enough or persistent enough to cause long-term 25 health effects. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 60 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that, of 3 course, is based on your testing? 4 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 5 Based on our testing, correct. That's correct. 6 . 7 Who is at greatest risk of health 8 effects? Probably those at greatest risk are those 9 unprotected workers on the debris pile or very close 10 to the site. And that is why much effort is being 11 put into training workers and developing health and 12 safety plans, and I think OSHA and DDC will be 13 discussing this in a second. 14 I just want to say, and, again, I 15 think we have been talking about this a little, it's 16 important to differentiate the exposure on the 17 debris pile versus exposures off the pile. The 18 levels of contaminants are very different in these 19 situations. Some of the substances such as benzene 20 were found to be transiently elevated on the debris 21 pile or in the plume just off the pile. Such 22 compounds that dissipate in the air, and thus have 23 not been found to be elevated outside of the plume 24 or off the debris pile. Residents are very low risk 25 of even short-term exposure to these substances. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 61 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 And I just also want to say, there 3 was a question asked, numerous academic institutions 4 have been proposing various studies to evaluate 5 potential health effects of the disaster on both 6 community residents and workers. 7 I also wanted to say a few words 8 about the standards that are being used for various 9 contaminants. 10 The standards are the tolerant 11 levels, and we talked a little bit about this, are 12 very conservative. For asbestos, and I think this 13 was alluded to already, for example, there are no 14 outdoor standards. For outdoor standards in 15 residential areas what the agencies have decided to 16 do is to use the standard for the indoor air quality 17 for re-entry into a school after asbestos removal 18 has occurred, and this is the most stringent 19 standard that we have and we have decided to use 20 that indoor school standard for outdoor air. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Can I just 22 interrupt you for one second? 23 Council Member Kathryn Freed, whose 24 district is ground zero, would like to ask you a 25 question, if that's okay? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 62 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Kathryn. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Thank you very 4 much. 5 I apologize for getting here late, I 6 actually had conflicting hearings, and I testified 7 at the other one and then rushed over here. 8 I should probably apologize, because 9 I have to admit, I'm getting to the emotional level 10 with all of this, starting with the fact that I had 11 bronchitis for about a week, I've been on 12 antibiotics, and the fact that most of the people 13 who live down near the Trade Center also have a 14 similar cough to what is now being called "the World 15 Trade Center Cough," because we are affected by the 16 air, indoor and outdoor, those of us who live and 17 work there 24 hours a day, and we're all evidencing 18 all kinds of health problems. Everything, as I said, 19 from the cough, and respiratory distress, to some of 20 the problems, for instance, that the students in 21 Stuyvesant High School have been evincing everything 22 from nausea to rashes and, you know, itching, 23 headaches, we all seem to be having those side 24 effects, so I do get a little upset when I keep 25 hearing, and I've been to a number of forums now Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 63 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 where everyone tells us, well, there are a little 3 spikes but there are no ongoing health problems, and 4 what I'm really concerned about, you just mentioned, 5 in addition to the fact that we're there, subject to 6 the fires that continue to burn every day, the fact 7 that we've known that, for instance, sometimes 8 benzene is like 45 or 50 times higher than it should 9 be, and my concerns are several. 10 First, the fact is individual things 11 get measured, and individual, everything from heavy 12 metals to VOCs, to PCBs and dioxins, as well as 13 asbestos and lead spike periodically, but when we're 14 there all the time we get all those spikes, and no 15 one has ever been able to tell us, instead of 16 measuring things individually, what is the effect of 17 all these spikes and all of these readings and all 18 of the various metals and everything else on us, 19 because we're subjected to all of them continually, 20 and no one seems to be looking at what kind of 21 synergistic effect there is, and that concerns us 22 greatly. 23 The other problem, as you were just 24 talking about the rubble pile, and the rubble pile 25 moves, in fact the rubble pile moves right by our Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 64 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 doors and by our windows -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Council member, 4 you asked one question, can you give an opportunity 5 to answer that question? 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Sure. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And then you can 8 ask your next question. 9 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Good 10 afternoon. Good morning. It's still morning. 11 I think there are a couple of 12 questions in there, and if I could take the 13 opportunity to just address a couple of those. One 14 is the irritation that we're feeling. I don't know 15 if you were here in the beginning when I was 16 speaking, I also live and work down here and have a 17 child in a school, and, you know, we're all feeling 18 it, we can't deny that. But I just want to emphasize 19 that those are the irritation effects. Those are not 20 the long-term health effects. That's not the 21 asbestos that's making that happen to us, that's the 22 smoke in the air, and, hopefully, when the fires go 23 out that will be alleviated, and we clearly all hope 24 that happens sooner than later. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But our Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 65 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 indication is that may take an awful long time. 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 4 don't have the answer to that. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Newspapers have 6 stories today based upon some expert opinions that 7 say it could take six months, maybe even a year 8 before these fires go out. 9 It is not unknown in coal mines and 10 in oil fields that these fires can go on a long 11 time. 12 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 13 don't have an answer to that. I think, you know, I 14 can't speak to that directly. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Maybe our 16 friends from DDC can give us some estimate of how 17 long these fires are going to continue? 18 MR. ADAMS: I'm really not qualified 19 to answer that. Somebody from the Fire Department 20 would be the best person to ask, they seem to have 21 the best handle. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay. 23 MR. ADAMS: Although, I've heard that 24 they're not even sure -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, maybe you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 66 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 could get that information for us. 3 MR. ADAMS: Yes. I certainly would do 4 that. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: But can I also 7 add, it's not just fires. I mean, it is the debris 8 that is in the air that does contain the asbestos, 9 the lead, the calcium, some of the other heavy 10 metals, and the fact that whether the fires are 11 going are not, as long as that's being moved around, 12 you know, when the other buildings come down, when 13 they do any kind of major rubble removal, and I have 14 to point out that the rubble removal goes on 24 15 hours a day, goes right by five schools, it goes by 16 a residential high-rise at Independence Plaza that 17 has some 6,000 people, and we're subject day after 18 day to essentially be redusted by all of that. 19 I have with me right here some leaves 20 that just came out of the park next door. If you 21 look at them you will see they are covered with 22 dust. The problem we have, particularly the way the 23 rubble removal is going right now, is that we get, 24 you know, we are subject to this constantly and 25 anyone who is downwind of this blowing around, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 67 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 because there are protocols that are not being 3 followed, if you look at the dump trucks as they are 4 supposed to be watered down, if you look at what 5 really happens, you will see the dust coming off, 6 you will see, as the shovels pick it up and drop it 7 into the barge, that there is continual dust coming 8 off. 9 Our problem is not just the fires and 10 what's going on there, our other problem is that we 11 are subject to this every day. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Kathryn, before 13 you get to the other problem, let her finish that 14 problem. We will get to the other problem. 15 Could you answer that question? I 16 should tell you, before you came in that I announced 17 that I would allow these witnesses to make their 18 presentation before we ask questions. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay, but my 20 problem was, understanding that that is not just one 21 problem -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If you wish 23 clarification, you are perfectly entitled to ask for 24 that clarification. But at this particular point I 25 want to hear the initial presentation, then we'll Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 68 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 start asking questions. 3 But if you have a particular 4 clarification, do you want to finish that answer to 5 that question, and then we will ask you the 6 questions of the panel afterwards? 7 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 8 will just answer your synergistic question. 9 I think the science, not only the 10 testing, but I think the science is not there yet to 11 know what kind of synergistic effects these 12 substances can have. 13 I think one thing that we do know is 14 that the standards that are out there are set with 15 many, many safety factors built in, and, so, to some 16 extent, hopefully they are protecting for 17 synergistic effects. The science is just not there 18 to have the full answer for you on that yet. 19 If we can wait until the issues about 20 clean-up til DDC and OSHA make their presentation, 21 that would be great. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Great. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I expect you 24 will be here for that? I expect that you will be 25 here for that, my colleague? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 69 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Yes, I wasn't 3 going anywhere. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 5 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 6 Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Continue. 8 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 9 Okay. 10 I was talking about standards. The 11 standards, as I've just said, have been designed to 12 include many safety factors so that at acceptable, 13 the acceptable levels of exposure are far below the 14 levels at which health effects are expected to 15 occur. 16 And just the important concept in 17 environmental toxicology that should be understood, 18 is that it's both the length of time of exposure for 19 a lot of these substances and the concentration of 20 the substance itself that are important in assessing 21 health effects. Many of the standards were based on 22 exposures for very prolonged periods of time. 23 Just, finally, the ongoing role of 24 the Department of Health in this whole process. The 25 Health Department will continue to review any air Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 70 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 monitoring results and collaborate with the other 3 agencies in this review, will continue to 4 collaborate on risk communication, health education 5 messages to workers at the site, and to provide risk 6 communication, health education messages to 7 residents and workers in the community. 8 We are also planning on collaborating 9 with other agencies in characterizing the levels of 10 substances in residences in the community, and will 11 continue to assess some of the needs of the 12 community residents. 13 Finally, we'll be continuing to 14 assess the environmental safety of schools in the 15 community, and have been working with the Board of 16 Ed and DEP and others to ensure that those schools 17 are clean and safe. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I just want to 19 have one clarification. 20 Much of your testimony is based on 21 the testing that is done by your agency and other 22 agencies, and some agencies use the microscopic or 23 PCM type of testing, as opposed to the transmission 24 of electronic microscope, or TEM; which testing are 25 you relying on? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 71 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The 3 Health Department has not been doing any asbestos 4 testing. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Or any other 6 testing. 7 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Yes. 8 EPA, and, again, has been doing TEM testing on all 9 of its samples. DEP has been doing PCM testing, and 10 when they find elevations on PCM will confirm it 11 with TEM. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So the TEM is 13 the more reliable type of testing? 14 MS. CALLAHAN: It's not more reliable, 15 it's different, and I think it is able to 16 distinguish on a finer level what the nature of the 17 fiber structures are. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Oh, I see. 19 MS. CALLAHAN: That's why it's done in 20 a sequence -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I just wanted 22 that clarification. 23 Can you continue, please. 24 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: We 25 work together, DEP and EPA, on those testing results Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 72 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Good. 4 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: To 5 make sure they're comparable and compatible. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Who is going to 7 testify next? 8 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 9 DEC, I believe. I believe DEC would just like to 10 make some remarks. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just make sure 12 you state -- I know your name, but make sure you 13 state your name so we have it for the record. 14 MS. KRIS: Thank you very much. My 15 name is Mary Ellen Kris, I'm the Regional Director 16 of the New York State Department of Environmental 17 Conservation, the office down here in New York City. 18 I want to thank Chairman Michels, and 19 Chairman Vallone, for convening the hearing and 20 inviting my agency to participate, along with the 21 many, many other agencies that are involved on a 22 daily basis in these issues. 23 I though it would be helpful to just 24 sort of explain what my agency's role is as compared 25 to some of these others, rather than to try to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 73 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 duplicate any of the discussion of some of the 3 technical data points. And I wanted to echo some of 4 the themes that you've heard already. 5 Since day one, since the day of the 6 disaster, every one of us at this table and our 7 staffs have been working very, very closely, in a 8 way that I would like to see that continue, I think 9 we all would. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let me just 11 interrupt you to introduce Morty, Council Member 12 Morty Povman from Queens, who has joined us. 13 Thank you. 14 MS. KRIS: Okay. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And Adolpho 16 Carrion, from the Bronx. Two of my colleagues. 17 My apologies. 18 MS. KRIS: And one of the things that 19 I hope people will get a flavor for in this 20 testimony is that each of us, each agency that is 21 involved, some of whom are here, some of whom are 22 not here, some of whom are in the room but not at 23 this table, such as the New York State Department of 24 Health, which has intimately involved from day one 25 as well, and they have represented us here, but Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 74 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 there are so many of us we can't all fit at the 3 table, each of us has different areas of expertise, 4 different skills, different resources, different 5 budgetary lines, and one of the things that has 6 happened as a result of this incident, in the 7 pulling together for a common cause, is that I think 8 we have come up with a great division of labor along 9 the lines of expertise and authorities and money. 10 And I hope that that comes through to some extent in 11 the testimony. 12 So, for example, one of the things 13 that State DEC has done in tandem with many other 14 agencies, is play a role, a defined role, in this 15 question of air quality. And on day one, that first 16 day, back when people's phones weren't working and 17 some of these agencies were displaced from their 18 offices, we were all somehow talking to each other 19 and DEC was asked how can you be helpful on the air 20 quality questions, because the people that live and 21 work in lower Manhattan and the people responding to 22 the incident are going to want to know what is safe 23 and what isn't and how can you help the mix. 24 And one of the things that we did at 25 State DEC is we installed additional monitors. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 75 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Some of you may know that State DEC 3 has operated an air monitoring network in the five 4 boroughs for 20 years, for purposes of evaluating 5 the extent to which we are in compliance or not in 6 compliance with air quality standards generally. 7 Well, one of the first questions 8 directed to us by the Department of City Health was, 9 how can we take advantage of that air monitoring 10 network and how do we get that data and should we be 11 asking you to install additional networks? 12 Well, as the previous speakers have 13 indicated, virtually that day people began defining 14 those questions establishing a work team so that we 15 didn't duplicate efforts and instead played to each 16 other's strengths, and environmental and public 17 health officials from the state, federal and local 18 agencies began talking every day, starting on 19 September 11th, and had met regularly, as 20 Commissioner Chapin has indicated, and out of that, 21 one of the things DEC was asked to do was to install 22 additional monitoring equipment for asbestos. My 23 understanding is there are 20 asbestos monitors in 24 Lower Manhattan, nine of which were installed, 25 operated and maintained by the State Department of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 76 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Environmental Conservation. 3 But because you need to have 4 uniformity of results and consistency of standards 5 and interpretation, the agencies got together on 6 what would be the best standard to use for 7 monitoring asbestos when there isn't an outdoor air 8 standard for asbestos, and all the agencies agreed 9 to use the most conservative approach already 10 explained, the federal AHERA standard that is used 11 for reoccupying schools. 12 So, with that in mind, as I say, DEC 13 on asbestos has been operating certain asbestos 14 monitoring stations. We collect the samples, some of 15 it is continuous monitoring and ends up 16 automatically on our web page, and on the EPA web 17 page, some of it requires people to go in and 18 install filters and remove filters. In any case, for 19 all those monitors that DEC is operating or 20 sampling, EPA does the analysis and reports the 21 results. So, that's an example of how we play to 22 each other's capabilities and resources. 23 We monitor for some other things as 24 well, particulates. We installed four additional 25 particulate air monitors, and that's both for finer Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 77 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 particles and coarser particles, and those are up 3 and running. 4 We are monitoring for dioxin in air. 5 We are doing water quality monitoring, that includes 6 ambient water quality, it includes stormwater 7 run-off, it includes sediment monitoring, and, 8 again, all of that information is fed into a common 9 database. EPA and one of the greatest things they 10 are doing, besides having given health and safety 11 equipment and all kinds of support to the various 12 agencies, is they are the central repository for all 13 this data, and it's available on their web site, 14 which serves a tremendous public purpose, it also 15 eliminates a lot of duplication of effort and 16 resource problems for all the other agencies. 17 So, air monitoring, water monitoring, 18 are among the things DEC is doing, and helping. We 19 are sort of, I would like to think that we're the 20 foot soldiers that are accumulating information 21 that's relied on by health professionals and OSHA 22 and EPA. 23 There are lots of tanks, there are 24 lots of oil spills. We have a core group of people 25 that are specialists in underground storage tanks Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 78 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 and spills remediation who have been working on this 3 from day one, who work with other agencies, they 4 work with the Fire Department and OEM and DDC who 5 are regularly on the lookout for anything that will 6 show up that requires remediation. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Were there 8 underground fuel storage tanks in this vicinity 9 affected by this? 10 MS. KRIS: Many. And there have been 11 many detected spills. 12 There is a level of complexity to all 13 of that, that I don't think any of us came to speak 14 to today, but the focus on air, suffice it to say is 15 replicated in each of the other relevant media, 16 whether it's sediment or it's soil or it's tanks. 17 Another thing that we have been 18 involved in at State DEC is on the ground inspection 19 and enforcement, you know, ground zero has presented 20 tremendous challenges on many fronts, and as we all 21 recall, in the very beginning it was a crime scene, 22 it was a search and rescue scene, and it was an 23 environmental construction remediation debris 24 removal operation. 25 All those operations had to occur in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 79 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 tandem without compromising each other. And, again, 3 that required extraordinary teamwork among many, 4 many agencies, environmental and non environmental. 5 One of the things that State DEC has 6 done from day one is we have had around the clock, 7 24 hours a day, seven days a week, inspectors from, 8 you know, technical inspectors, as well as law 9 enforcement inspectors, involved in monitoring what 10 is a gargantu an undertaking, in terms of removing 11 the debris from ground zero, getting it out to 12 staging areas, getting it, and getting it out to 13 Fresh Kills. We've got -- 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How many do you 15 have? How many of those inspectors do you have? 16 MS. KRIS: Well, we have had, from day 17 one we have had people at ground zero, the number 18 probably varies depending on the time of day and the 19 day of the week. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Give me a ball 21 park estimate. 22 MS. KRIS: Well, we've got, I would 23 say we've got, in the beginning we had a minimum of 24 -- we had a group of people out at Fresh Kills, we 25 had a minimum of one or two people at the transfer Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 80 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 station at 59th Street, and the transfer station at 3 Hamilton Avenue in Brooklyn, which were being used, 4 the marine transfer stations, to get the debris out 5 to Fresh Kills. We now have people at Pier 25, we've 6 got people at Pier 6. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Can you give me 8 some sort of an idea of the numbers? 9 MS. KRIS: I would guess, I am going 10 to give you my best guess at the moment. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, please. 12 MS. KRIS: I would say -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Later if you 14 want to correct some of your testimony or fill in 15 your testimony, any one of you here, please -- 16 MS. KRIS: I know that until very 17 recently we had at least one person there 24 hours a 18 day. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's ground 20 zero? 21 MS. KRIS: No. At the different points 22 where the debris is being removed. Some people at 23 ground zero, some people at the transfer stations, 24 some people at Fresh Kills. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Like ten, 20 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 81 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 people you have a day, or something like that? 3 MS. KRIS: That's probably high. 4 Because we have other people deployed to sit at OEM 5 and to respond to other incidents and complaints. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Have you gotten 7 additional personnel from the state to come down and 8 help you in your offices? 9 MS. KRIS: We have brought in people 10 from all over our agency, people from Albany, people 11 from the other eight regions. At one point in time 12 we had I think an additional 40 or 50 law 13 enforcement officers from State DEC brought in from 14 elsewhere to complement the 15 or 20 that we have in 15 our region. And we brought in -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And what would 17 their duties be, the State Law Enforcement people of 18 DEC? 19 MS. KRIS: They've occupied a number 20 of different roles. They've provided a lot of 21 logistical support at OEM and at CEMO and FEMA. 22 They've also provided inspection capabilities 23 throughout all the truck routes and down at ground 24 zero. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 82 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 environmentally trained, is that it? Do these people 3 have a specialty in environmental -- 4 MS. KRIS: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's what I 6 want to know. 7 MS. KRIS: They are trained. They go 8 through the same training academy as the State 9 Police. In addition they are fully trained in all of 10 the State environmental laws. 11 Now, one of the things that I know, 12 that I've heard about today from Councilman Freed, 13 and I've heard about from other sources, is 14 obviously there is a concern that there are schools 15 and homes in the area where this debris removal is 16 occurring, and dust suppression and dust control has 17 been a concern for the health agencies and the 18 environmental agencies from day one. 19 And you have other issues as well, 20 you've got fires still burning, you've got noise, 21 you've got all kinds of things. 22 We have had people out there to 23 require wetting down of the material, to requiring 24 tarping of the trucks, to take trucks out of 25 service. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 83 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: They never tarp 3 the trucks, ever. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please let her 5 finish, and then you can ask the questions. I am 6 aware you want a clarification, so let her finish. 7 MS. KRIS: I'd like to explain what 8 we've done and where we're headed and the fact that 9 I didn't come here to do a sales job, I also came to 10 listen. 11 I'd like to explain what we are 12 attempting to do, and if you feel we're falling 13 short, I know you're going to give me specifics that 14 I will take back. 15 I am aware that we have written 16 violations. But I am also aware that there are 17 criticisms that are coming from the community and 18 coming from their elected officials that they feel 19 increased enforcement and controls are necessary, 20 and I am here to tell you that we have heard that 21 criticism and one of the things we discussed last 22 night was to switch our personnel and to use more 23 law enforcement officers and less civilian personnel 24 from my agency, because the fact is that somebody in 25 a uniform who carries a gun commands a lot more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 84 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 respect from a party driving an 18-wheeler, than 3 perhaps a civilian solid waste inspector does. 4 We hear the criticisms and we intend 5 to respond to them. If it means more aggressive 6 enforcement, we're here to do that. 7 Let me just see if there was anything 8 else I left out. 9 We obviously were called upon to 10 issue emergency permits of various types; for 11 example, to extend hours of operation at certain 12 transfer stations, to allow emergency dredging, that 13 whole operation, debris removal operation that's 14 occurring on the other side of Pier 25, that was 15 something that had to get built. 16 The debris removal that's occurring 17 just south of Pier 25, they built that, they had to 18 dredge and build it under permits from a variety of 19 agencies, including my agency. Again, we had people 20 out there during the dredging for Pier 25. I think 21 as time has worn on, I think we have cut back 22 oversight of certain things. We have to move the 23 people around as the site of operations changes to 24 be responsive to where we feel the impacts are going 25 to be greatest. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 85 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Mary Ellen, just 3 let me clarify that. 4 You now are going to be putting more 5 people into enforcement and that means that they 6 will be capable of issuing tickets for violations. 7 MS. KRIS: Definitely. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Violations for 9 failure to cover the trucks, idling of the trucks, 10 and they have the capability of inspecting the 11 engines to make sure that they conform to the laws, 12 as far as these are all diesel engines -- 13 MS. KRIS: Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And to make sure 15 the diesel engines are properly tuned up and they 16 have the necessary mechanical things to reduce the 17 quality of the -- 18 MS. KRIS: Yes -- 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Reduce the 20 emission from the trucks. 21 MS. KRIS: Right. We're triaging 22 resources like everyone has been, and we played a 23 huge, our law enforcement people have played a 24 massive role at OEM and at the bridges and tunnels, 25 and we are now rethinking how we're deploying them, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 86 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 and we recognize a need to deploy them in more of an 3 inspection capacity with the trucks, than perhaps 4 they've played heretofore. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Can I just 6 respond to that? 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In that regard 8 -- and then I will let you ask your question -- has 9 there been any attempt to distinguish between, and 10 anybody can answer this question, has there been any 11 attempt to distinguish between the pollutants 12 emanating from the fire and debris pile, versus 13 pollutants that result from the heavy machinery and 14 diesel engine trucks in the area, and the pick-up of 15 debris and the deposits, say, in the barges? 16 MS. KRIS: I'm sorry? 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Has there been 18 any attempt to distinguish between those pollutants 19 that are emanating from the fire and the debris of 20 the World Trade Center, from those which result from 21 the heavy machinery and the diesel engine trucks in 22 the area? The whole recovery aspect, because we are 23 no longer in the rescue aspect. I understand a 24 couple of days ago we decided to go into the 25 recovery aspect of it. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 87 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CALLAHAN: We haven't to date, 3 I'll try to field that one because I think it's 4 principally EPA's data that might speak to that. 5 We have not tried to make 6 distinctions at this point. We've been principally 7 looking at what are the levels that might be of 8 health concerns, either workers or residents in the 9 area. And yet, we are very well aware that there are 10 concerns being raised by the community where trucks 11 are being backed up, where they are concerned about 12 debris and how that's being handled, and I think 13 this may be another opportunity because we have done 14 it over time, to continue our collaborations to see 15 what are the nature of the things that create those 16 back-ups and what can we do in terms of working with 17 the various City agencies -- 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: This is an 19 operation that's going to continue for some time to 20 come. 21 MS. CALLAHAN: Exactly. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We now have to 23 get in control of it. The emergency aspect of this 24 thing is pretty much over, unfortunately, and we're 25 very saddened by it, and we want to show the right Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 88 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 sensitivity, but now we have to be concerned with 3 the people who live in the vicinity. 4 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. So, we 5 need to be able to adjust to the problems that come 6 up: Look at what might be some kind of best 7 management practices; what is slowing the trucks up 8 in certain areas; is there something we can do to 9 improve that flow; is there something we can do 10 about diesels idling and make sure that that is not 11 happening - where we run into a problem, creating an 12 additional, you know, sort of exposure impact to the 13 community, I think that is something that we need to 14 collaborate on as agencies. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And testing does 16 play a part in that. 17 MS. CALLAHAN: Absolutely. It tells us 18 what's out there, and, so, you know, it's useful. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Kathryn. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Thank you. 21 First, the question about the barge 22 and the rubble removal, I have to tell you, you 23 never met your protocols. You violated your own 24 protocols from day one. If you go right out on the 25 pier right now you'll see you continue to violate Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 89 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 them. Forget about the diesel trucks that are always 3 lined up, the crane that's out there consistently 4 pumps black smoke in the air, but the problem is 5 they don't wet it down adequately. If you watch it 6 when it's picked up, when they drop the debris out 7 of the back of the dump truck onto the road bed, you 8 will see the puffs of dust coming up. 9 When the shovel picks it up and drops 10 it down in the barge, you will see the puffs of dust 11 continue to come up. The problem isn't -- you know, 12 I don't care how many people are out there who are 13 trying to do, you know, get the regulations 14 respected, the problem is you have to look at a 15 better way of doing it. 16 There have got to be better ways, and 17 I don't care if that better way is that you 18 containerize it right on the site and you put it on 19 flatbed trucks, or maybe you should look at the 20 possibility of putting in a railway for now because 21 we're talking about six months to a year, and, you 22 know, we're subjected to that diesel constantly. 23 It's bad enough we've got all the particulates in 24 the air that we already know are dangerous from the 25 site, but what about the diesel? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 90 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 But if you containerized it on the 3 site, didn't open that container until it got -- put 4 the container on the barge, took the barge out to 5 Fresh Kills and opened it there, you could cut down 6 on a lot of the recontamination from that. 7 I think you have to look at a better 8 different way of doing it. Because we're subject to 9 this, and I keep saying this, 24 hours a day. 10 Twenty-four hours a day you hear the trucks, you 11 hear the people who live next to it and with the 12 schools, every time they drop a load, it's like an 13 explosion. Every time the crane picks it up and 14 drops it on the barge, it's another explosion. The 15 shovel that they use when they do the piles of 16 rubble removal is very loud, and I don't know if 17 it's someone different on it sometimes, but it's 18 like an explosion. All night long you hear the 19 explosions. 20 People who live nearby, many people 21 now are looking to move out. That's not even dealing 22 with the ongoing exposure. And quite frankly, I 23 don't care if you have somebody out there with a 24 revolver, they're not going to shoot these 25 18-wheelers, they're going to try and tell them to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 91 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 do the protocols, and they're going to say, hey, 3 man, we gotta get this done, and if we tarp it, 4 we're never going to get it wet, and then besides 5 they have security concerns, so it's not going to 6 happen. You have to look at a different way to do 7 it. And you do have to take into consideration the 8 residents and the school children. 9 When you were talking about the most 10 conservative standards, I wanted a clarification on 11 this, most of those standards deal with everything 12 from, they deal with 30-year levels, they talk about 13 an hour in an eight-hour day, or over an eight-hour 14 day, the exposure that we, and not just the people 15 who live there, but also the rescue workers are 16 getting, are substantially more than an eight-hour 17 day. I want to know if you've taken that into 18 consideration. 19 And again I have this question about 20 synergy, because I am very, very cynical, that 21 you're talking about the exposures that they're 22 going to leave, minor exposures, that that will go 23 away when the fires end - I don't believe so. I 24 think that many of us are looking at asthma, and we 25 are now hearing that even some of the firefighters Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 92 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are beginning to show signs of emphysema. And we're 3 worried about that, too, and that's not short-term, 4 that doesn't go away. Those are things that are 5 going to continue to affect our health and their 6 health in ten years and 20 years, and potentially 7 shorten our lifespans. 8 I want those things dealt with as 9 well. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Can you answer 11 some of those questions? 12 I know there were quite a number of 13 questions asked, but could you answer some of them? 14 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: I 15 was going to say, the health issues, but also a 16 variety of the issues that were just being raised 17 were actually the OSHA and DDC presentation about 18 the control of that site. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, somebody 20 could respond as quickly as possible, if they can 21 respond to some of the questions without a 22 dissertation, then we will go to OSHA. 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 24 tried to answer this synergy question I think 25 before, and obviously we don't have -- can you hear Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 93 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 me? 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: She has raised 4 legitimate objections. She lives down there, she has 5 seen it, she is actually a fact witness to that. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: I live right by 7 where the barges are and, you know, quite frankly, 8 to say that you don't know what happens when these 9 things -- you know, when there is a synergy, you 10 know, that doesn't quite make it for us. We'd like 11 to know what protocols, what epidemiological studies 12 are being done. I know that firefighters are being 13 monitored, some of the children at Stuyvesant have 14 an epidemiologist there, what about the residents 15 who are there 24 hours a day, we should also be 16 monitored. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Kathryn, let her 18 answer the question. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We are very 21 aware of the fact that we do have children who are 22 there who are much more susceptible -- 23 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: And seniors. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And seniors, 25 which are people who are much more susceptible to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 94 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the possible dangers here. 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 4 actually know of a number of proposals from academic 5 institutions to do studies of long-term effects on 6 everything, ranging from pregnant women to workers, 7 and these studies, epidemiologic studies, involve 8 complex design and analyses, and I think we would 9 support the academic institutions in doing that. The 10 City Health Department is developing a worker 11 registry, and it is being developed, in the works 12 now, and, hopefully, as time goes on we will have 13 more information. 14 Right now what we're doing is trying 15 to monitor exposures that are existing right now, so 16 that information can be used to do further studies 17 as time goes on. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: But some of 19 those studies are not being reported. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But right now 21 what we're really interested in is preventative. I 22 mean, I'm not interested to find out ten years from 23 now that the people got emphysema or asthma as a 24 result of what's going on down there, I'm just using 25 that as an example, but what I want to do, I would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 95 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 rather expend the money and the time and the effort 3 to preventing any possibility of that. I know 4 everybody in the academic world, in the medical 5 profession, say well, look, we will do a study then 6 we can decide it, but right now we have a danger, we 7 know it's going on and we want to prevent it. 8 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 9 think we totally agree, and I think what the 10 agencies at the table here today are doing are 11 taking back the information -- 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We're not saying 13 otherwise. 14 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: And 15 will try to take into account what you are 16 recommending in terms of protocols. 17 I think a lot is being done, and how 18 it's being done, there is substantial watering 19 that's been going on, and I think this is where, and 20 for dust suppression to keep the dust levels lower, 21 and I think that's probably where we want to seque 22 into the presentation by -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just one other 24 housekeeping situation, and I'd like to ask the 25 representative of EPA: In Boston, the so-called "big Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 96 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 dig" in Boston, and I'm not sure I know what that 3 means, there was a commitment to minimize diesel 4 emissions, and what I would suggest to you that you 5 should please study what was done up there in 6 Boston. Evidently it's nationally renown as 7 something that's been very successful to minimize 8 the emissions of diesel engines, and see perhaps 9 that we should find out what they did so that we use 10 that in order to be able to minimize the diesel 11 emissions in here. 12 MS. CALLAHAN: I'd be glad to look 13 into it. It sounds like it might offer some good 14 ideas. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 16 much. 17 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: Mr. 18 Chairman, I have to apologize, as you know, we 19 discussed before that I have to be at a speaking 20 engagement five minutes from now. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do you have 22 representatives -- 23 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: We 24 have two Deputy Commissioners in our air quality and 25 asbestos, experts who will stay, and I will return Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 97 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 if I can. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay. Well, have 4 one of them take your place, and I'm sure having 5 worked with them I know their area of expertise is 6 very high. 7 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: We 8 appreciate it. 9 We both have our Environmental 10 Compliance Division, and actually, our Wastewater 11 Division, which did some -- 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If you just 13 inform them, if there is a relevant question that 14 they have an expertise on, if they please would 15 answer those questions? 16 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 17 Absolutely. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I know you would 19 do that if you were here, but if they're not here 20 let them volunteer, and I know they're not bashful. 21 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 22 Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Who are you 24 going to suggest take their place? 25 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 98 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Deputy Commissioner Avaltroni, who is the Deputy 3 Commissioner for the Bureau of Environmental 4 Compliance. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Know him well. 6 Thank you. 7 FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CHAPIN: 8 Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Commissioner 10 Avaltroni, welcome. 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Thank 12 you. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you want to 14 continue? OSHA is here. 15 Identify yourself. 16 MS. CLARKE: Patricia Clarke. I'm the 17 Regional Administrator for OSHA for the New York 18 Region, and it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you 19 very much for inviting us, and including us to make 20 this presentation, along with our colleagues that 21 we've been working so diligently with for these last 22 number of weeks. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let me introduce 24 Council Member Sabini from Queens, who is here as 25 well. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 99 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 As I said, we're talking about doing 3 this and we have various Council members who have 4 other responsibilities and they're coming in and out 5 from time to time. 6 MS. CLARKE: Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you, Ms. 8 Clarke. 9 Please continue. 10 MS. CLARKE: It's our pleasure to be 11 able to explain OSHA's role and the WTC disaster 12 response. Our mission is directed toward workers 13 specifically, and I think if we look at our 14 jurisdiction, perhaps that helps explain it a little 15 bit. We cover private sector employers and employees 16 and the federal agencies as well. 17 Our State plan partner, the New York 18 State Department of Labor, the Public Employee 19 Safety and Health entity has safety and health 20 responsibility for public sector employees. So that 21 covers pretty much everyone who is working at this 22 site. 23 We would take the contractors, the 24 private sector and the federal agencies and PESH 25 covers the state and municipal workers. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 100 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You do have 3 jurisdiction? 4 There was a question as to whether or 5 not you have jurisdiction on the site. 6 MS. CLARKE: Well, we have 7 jurisdiction over, coverage over those workers. 8 I was going to explain it in another 9 slide, but I can do that now. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: When you say you 11 have jurisdiction, as a lawyer I was taught 12 jurisdiction means power. Therefore you would have 13 power to be able to enforce your regulations. 14 MS. CLARKE: We normally have power to 15 enforce our regulations. It's a little different 16 situation when you have an incident command. The 17 Fire Department of New York, initially and now 18 currently with the Department of Design and 19 Construction, still has an incident command 20 situation at the site. Under those circumstances, 21 normally OSHA, we have a section in our law which 22 says that we'll respect other entities who have 23 control of a site during that time, and because of 24 that we have not been exercising our enforcement 25 role. Instead we've been taking a consultative Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 101 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 technical assistance role, which we always do as 3 well. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You haven't 5 given up your jurisdiction. 6 MS. CLARKE: No, we have not given up 7 our jurisdiction. That is not something that we 8 would do. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You shared the 10 enforcement powers and you're an advisor and 11 consultant, but the fact of the matter is you still 12 have responsibility. 13 MS. CLARKE: Yes, very definitely. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the 15 responsibilities are there no matter what, because 16 you can't give up that responsibility. 17 MS. CLARKE: That's correct. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You may give up 19 authority, but you can't give up responsibility. 20 MS. CLARKE: Correct. The law has -- 21 we still have that jurisdiction, that 22 responsibility. 23 So, what we're doing is -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So we have a 25 right to look to you to advise us as to what's going Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 102 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 on there. 3 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And whether 5 there has been adherence to the regulations that you 6 are obligated to enforce. 7 What you have said essentially is, 8 you've looked to other agencies to enforce your 9 regulations? 10 MS. CLARKE: We've looked to other 11 agencies to work cooperatively together in this 12 situation, recognizing now there are -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Taking into fact 14 they are aware of your regulations and they should 15 be enforced, because if they don't enforce your 16 regulations, and not doing what they should be 17 doing, then you should take back your right to 18 regulate. 19 MS. CLARKE: We very much are using 20 our regulations at the site, both in the issues of 21 air quality for the workers, as well as safety 22 issues. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please, I have 24 another question after this but I would like you to 25 finish your statement. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 103 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CLARKE: Okay. 3 I just wanted to point out about OSHA 4 standards, because I think that was one of the 5 questions that the Committee raised, perhaps the 6 difference between OSHA and EPA standards. 7 Our standards do relate to the 8 worker, and normally they're based on risk 9 assessments that's done to determine what level of 10 contaminant might cause a disease for a worker. It's 11 based on 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, over a 12 normal working lifetime, which is a little bit 13 different and that's why sometimes you'll see the 14 difference between our standards. 15 Just to talk a little bit about what 16 we're doing there, you've already raised the issue 17 of the technical assistance, we're providing that 18 directly to DDC, as the construction manager on the 19 site to the contractors, to the labor entities, to 20 other federal, state and local agencies, and all of 21 the really major stakeholders, and we're taking 22 really a three-pronged approach there. 23 First of all, realizing that there 24 was a very uncontrolled and indeterminate 25 environment there, we led off with respiratory Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 104 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 protection, and to date we've distributed and done 3 fit checks for over 100,000 wearers, during the time 4 that we've been at the site. 5 We also have been providing other 6 protective equipment - hard hats, goggles, glasses, 7 gloves, all the other protective equipment, which 8 are really needed by the workers and the rescue 9 workers at the site. 10 We're also doing safety monitoring. 11 This is something that we started out in conjunction 12 with DDC and then when Bechtel came in as the site 13 safety and health manager we began working with 14 them. In that regard we sealed 18 people a day. It 15 is a 24 hour a day, seven day a week operation. 16 We've also had some specific areas 17 that we've emphasized. As you probably know, there 18 is a large number of cranes on site, which create 19 their own hazards, as well as all of the heavy 20 equipment, and we've been doing an emphasis, a 21 cooperative effort with the contractors, with the 22 operating engineers, on crane issues. 23 As far as the industrial hygiene 24 sampling and the risk assessment, which is, of 25 course, your greatest concern, we've been doing this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 105 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 really from, we started out on the 13th of September 3 and we've had people around the clock, 24 hours a 4 day, doing sampling, doing risk assessment. We've 5 collected over 1,600 samples, the vast majority of 6 those are personal air samples, which I can explain 7 a little bit different than maybe what some of the 8 other agencies do. 9 That means we have a pump, a little 10 pump that pulls air through tubes. It's attached 11 onto the person's collar or shirt, close to the 12 breathing zone. We keep that on for the work shift, 13 to try to get a determination of really -- as a 14 matter of fact I brought one to show you. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I do believe in 16 demonstrative evidence. 17 MS. CLARKE: Okay, good. I'm glad then 18 I brought this. 19 This happens to be one that's set up 20 to do sampling for asbestos. This is a little pump, 21 we put this on the belt of the worker, and we would 22 attach this up here, as close to the breathing zone 23 as possible. This is the little filter cassette, and 24 in here is the filter media, the pump pulls the air 25 through the filter and deposits the contaminant on Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 106 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the filter, then at the end of the shift we take 3 this back. We do some calculations based on air 4 flow, we send the filters off to our analytical 5 laboratory in Salt Lake City and they'll do the 6 analysis. 7 It's a little different for different 8 substances. Some of the other things are more direct 9 readings, some of the organics. Instead of having a 10 filter, you would have a charcoal tube that the 11 substances are deposited on. But basically this is 12 the way we do most of our samples. We do do some 13 grab samples, and I also have a picture later on of 14 some of the screening samples that we'll do for some 15 of the substances. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How long does 17 this process take before you get results of the 18 samples? 19 MS. CLARKE: Well, it really depends 20 on the substance. Asbestos we can turn around in 21 maybe two days. We also have to have the issue of 22 flying the materials out to salt lake, but they're 23 working around the clock there too. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there any 25 chance of bringing it to one of the local labs, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 107 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 let them utilize it, instead of having -- because 3 two days, a lot of things can happen in two days. 4 MS. CLARKE: I guess we have a very 5 high level of confidence in our laboratory. In many 6 ways they are the ones who have developed some of 7 the sampling methodology and analytical methods. 8 There are standard OSHA methods, and these are the 9 people who develop them, and because of that we have 10 a great deal of confidence in their work. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Maybe they can 12 move here temporarily. A lot of people have been 13 coming into our area as a result, and I've seen cars 14 from all over the country coming here on a temporary 15 basis to try to help us out. 16 MS. CLARKE: Well, so far we have been 17 able to get information, I think quickly enough to 18 make any kind of -- 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You say two 20 days. Two days, I think two days is a long time. 21 Maybe I'm wrong. 22 MS. CLARKE: Well, I think if you look 23 at some of our sample results, you'll see that what 24 we've been finding is pretty much established. We 25 are still continuing, because we never know what's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 108 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 going on there, but I think we're pretty comfortable 3 with that, but we certainly could look into that. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Maybe your other 5 colleagues would have some suggestions on it. These 6 are employees involved in the ground zero; is that 7 correct? 8 MS. CLARKE: Definitely. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are you doing it 10 any other place in Lower Manhattan, to take the 11 sampling away? 12 MS. CLARKE: Well, actually, yes, if 13 we can go to the next slide. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: With this device 15 that you have? 16 MS. CLARKE: Well, I was just going to 17 show you what we're doing with respirators. 18 This is one of our check stations, 19 where we actually do the testing, we try to 20 determine if it's the appropriate respirator. We do 21 training. In this particular case we've got a Police 22 Department worker and I think the other one probably 23 was, might have been a contractor employee. But we 24 have, those are operating around the clock, we're 25 staffed with about 36 people a day doing that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 109 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 operation. We have two sites. We also have a mobile 3 unit. We have a gator (phonetic) that we put the 4 equipment on and we actually go out to the pile to 5 really make sure, you know, if we see somebody who 6 doesn't have a respirator, we go and grab them, 7 bring them back, try to get the fit on and get them 8 into the respirator. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How frequent do 10 you do that? And how many people? Because I'm 11 getting reports that a lot of these people are not 12 using proper respirators. 13 MS. CLARKE: I have to say that the 14 use of respirators has grown over time, clearly in 15 the early days there was that intensity I think to 16 try to work real quickly during the rescue. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of course. 18 MS. CLARKE: And I think that probably 19 was more perhaps the rescue workers, as more and 20 more contractors came on site, they are more 21 accustomed to wearing personal protective equipment, 22 and I think we're getting a relatively good response 23 from those as well. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Basically your 25 operation of your agency is in the ground zero area; Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 110 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are you doing anything outside of the ground zero 3 area? 4 MS. CLARKE: Initially we actually did 5 start out in the financial district. There was a 6 concern about can we open the market again, can we 7 get those workers back to work? Clearly, the plume 8 went over that area. There was a lot of materials 9 deposited. In conjunction with EPA, we did a great 10 deal of sampling there to find out what the levels 11 were. Concurrent with that we actually worked with, 12 well EPA did HEPA vacuuming, they did power washing 13 with the Department of Sanitation. They really 14 cleaned up the area quite well. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You ought to 16 explain to people, the HEPA vacuuming is the 17 state-of-the-art in order to get the finest 18 particles and remove the finest particles in the 19 concern of danger. 20 MS. CLARKE: Right. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I know we 22 used that. As you may be familiar, I am very 23 familiar with lead dust, and that's something that 24 we advise people to use, is HEPA vacuuming. 25 MS. CLARKE: Exactly, a good Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 111 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 description of it. 3 What we did is we, in the early days, 4 because there were not workers in that area, what we 5 did is we actually affixed these pumps to our own 6 people. We had them walk grids in the area over the 7 day in order to simulate what would be an exposure 8 level to people who might be walking around that 9 area. And we continue to do that actually, even, you 10 notice, after the market opened, we did it through 11 the end of the first week it was opened. We also 12 went back and took, we did examinations of buildings 13 that we had seen before that had a lot of debris on, 14 just to confirm that they had all been cleaned up, 15 and it really was a remarkable effort I think on the 16 part of Sanitation and EPA and all the agencies in 17 getting that material out of there. I've never seen 18 such clean buildings in my life. 19 We did sampling for asbestos, as well 20 as silica, because silica actually can cause more 21 irritation on a short -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What is silica? 23 MS. CLARKE: It's a mineral that would 24 be in a lot of the concrete, the dust, which is a 25 good portion of the dust that has been deposited Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 112 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 from the site, when the buildings exploded. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Like sand. 4 MS. CLARKE: It's in sand, yes. And it 5 can cause respiratory illnesses and distress, and it 6 causes irritation. We wanted to check not only for 7 asbestos but also for silica. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It is not 9 carcinogenic, is it? 10 MS. CLARKE: No. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And how about 12 fiberglass, are you testing for that? 13 MS. CLARKE: We didn't test for that 14 in the financial district essentially. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You were aware 16 that when they stopped using the asbestos in the 17 first 40 floors of the World Trade Center for 18 insulation, it was substituted for encapsulated 19 fiberglass. And that's one of the problems that 20 we're hearing, there's a lot of fiberglass out 21 there. And in lab animals that has been shown to be 22 carcinogenic. 23 MS. CLARKE: I think EPA or DOH -- are 24 you going to talk about the fiberglass issues 25 elsewhere? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 113 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 3 Fiberglass, as I understand it -- do you want to 4 take that? 5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 6 Chairman, we're going to have our ATSDR expert speak 7 to it. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Fine. In uniform 9 yet. 10 Just identify yourself, and I thank 11 you very much for being here. 12 DR. JOHNSON: Greetings. I'm Dr. 13 Robert Johnson with the Agency for Toxic Substances 14 and Disease Registry, we're a sister agency with the 15 CDC in Atlanta, and I've been detailed up here for 16 the last month to help out with the New York City 17 Department of Health in a lot of their efforts. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, we're very 19 appreciative you are here. 20 DR. JOHNSON: I'm glad to be here. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We know of the 22 CDC very well. 23 DR. JOHNSON: Yes. 24 Just to clear up a couple of things 25 here, maybe because I know it gets confusing with Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 114 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 all this particulate matter and asbestos and the 3 silica and stuff. 4 All of these things fall under the 5 category of particulate matter, but we kind of 6 separate out asbestos and silica, because actually 7 these two substances do more than just the 8 irritation affects the other particles do. Maybe 9 being a physician in the health aspect, we do worry 10 about the both fibrous, fibrotic lung disease caused 11 by asbestos and respirable silica. These are the 12 very small particles of silica, you talked about 13 these PM 10, PM 2.5, and the cancer risk from both 14 asbestos and silica. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the finer 16 the particles, the more dangerous they are? 17 DR. JOHNSON: Basically that's right. 18 It's why we measure these, what we call coarse and 19 fine particles, these PM 10, very small, 10 microns 20 or less, and the PM 2.5, very small, 2.5 microns or 21 less, the reason why fiberglass is not as much of a 22 problem as these two is, basically that the fibers, 23 the fibers are big and they don't get down as deep 24 and the body actually handles them okay, but the 25 body does not handle silica and asbestos fine Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 115 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 particles as well, and because of that they can 3 cause fibrous, fibrotic lung disease, and because of 4 that they lead, they are a risk factor for lung 5 cancer. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: As far as 7 fiberglass is concerned, wasn't a lot of the 8 fiberglass here pulverized so it became the smaller 9 particles? 10 DR. JOHNSON: All these things that we 11 would consider as small particles, besides the 12 silica and asbestos there is mica and calcite and 13 fiberglass, they get pulverized very small too. But 14 because they're not the same shape and irritable 15 ability of these two, we kind of look at silica and 16 asbestos as a special case. All particles can be 17 irritating and can cause some of the symptoms, you 18 talked about they can cause a lot of coughs, a lot 19 of respiratory stuff, bronchitis and everything, but 20 these two bad players here -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Getting back to 22 the fiberglass issue, have you seen to any of the 23 particles of the fiberglass that have been recovered 24 from the site? 25 DR. JOHNSON: There is a good deal of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 116 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 fiberglass material in the bulk dust that has been 3 collected, yes, it's there. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Have we 5 determined the size of it? Is it the PM 10 size or 6 what? 7 DR. JOHNSON: It comes all kinds of 8 sizes. It will be pieces of all different sizes, but 9 I think the main take-home lesson for this is that 10 the fiberglass doesn't take the shape and size. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Generally 12 speaking. 13 DR. JOHNSON: Yes. Fiberglass is 14 studied pretty well because the construction 15 industry uses it so much. It's a very irritating 16 substance, but does not appear to have the same 17 health risk to the lung as respirable silica and 18 asbestos. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So what is the 20 risk of fiberglass? 21 DR. JOHNSON: Basically it's an 22 irritant risk. It can cause the irritation of the 23 eyes, nose, throat, can cause cough, it can cause a 24 kind of an irritant, bronchitis that goes on. It's 25 not something you want to be breathing. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 117 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 We really recommend all of these 3 fibrous things be screened out with the best 4 precautions and the best masks you can, but it 5 doesn't have the same long-term health risk as 6 respirable silica and asbestos. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The size of the 8 fibers, it doesn't get into the deep part of the 9 lung; is that what you're saying? 10 DR. JOHNSON: You have to think of 11 these things, both the size and the shape of 12 particles that get down deep in your lungs are 13 important. The reason why asbestos is, these long, 14 these spinney, little skinny but long fibers that 15 the body can't handle, it tries to get rid of them, 16 it can't, they cause the lungs to fibrose and 17 eventually they become a risk factor for cancer and 18 mesothelioma. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just to finish 20 off on the issue of fiberglass, because it has been 21 made a big issue as far as my office is concerned, 22 it is a carcinogen in certain circumstances. 23 DR. JOHNSON: No, fiberglass has not 24 been shown to be a carcinogen. 25 Maybe one more thing I can say is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 118 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that these methods, both the methods that we use for 3 measuring the asbestos, the TEM and the PCM and 4 other methods, as well as the methods we measure 5 particulate matter in the air, all of these are 6 pretty good methods for looking at what these 7 particles are made of. 8 We are able to identify fiberglass 9 through these methods. So, we can separate out 10 what's asbestos, we can separate out what's 11 fiberglass. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay, thank you 13 very much. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Wait. Can I ask 15 a couple of questions on that? 16 I'm actually kind of confused to hear 17 you say that. My understanding was like silica and 18 all crystalline forms were carcinogenic, and I think 19 that's according to the National Toxicology Program 20 and the International Agency for Research in Cancer. 21 You know, we've heard about that 22 constantly. We also heard that the difference 23 between, not just fiberglass, but asbestos, but then 24 a lot of the asbestos that was in the Trade Center, 25 what was it, crysotiled? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 119 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. JOHNSON: Crysotiled, yes. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: But that's also 4 asbestos. 5 DR. JOHNSON: Correct. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: So, I'm kind of 7 confused. I mean, I'm confused about why you say 8 that the fiberglass isn't carcinogenic when I have 9 other accounts that say that they are. And then 10 there is the question of what kind of standards and 11 what kind of, the fact that we're subject to this 24 12 hours a day. 13 DR. JOHNSON: Right. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: And what kind 15 of monitoring you've done in that, and, you know, 16 what is the likely impact? 17 DR. JOHNSON: Okay, I'll try to answer 18 those. 19 I don't believe that the scientific 20 literature shows that the fiberglass particles are 21 the same kind of fibrotic causer as these two, or 22 that they are a cancer risk. 23 Now, I'll stand corrected if you find 24 the body of information that says that, but I don't 25 believe that's the case. So, we can talk about that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 120 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The other things about your exposure, 3 I think very good points you brought up before 4 because we have to remember, when we're using OSHA 5 standards, we are looking at work site, you know, 6 eight hour days, average over lifetime of a worker, 7 things like that. But remember also that EPA 8 standards are generally based on lifetime exposure 9 to these things. And when they set most of the EPA 10 standards for exposure to these things, the ones 11 that do have standards, they are set on lifetime 12 exposures and not, and full day, 24 hours a day, so 13 we have to look a little bit at which standard. 14 That's a good thing for you to keep in mind, which 15 standards are we comparing things to. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Right. 17 But the other question on that is 18 most of the standards are also set for adults, they 19 are not set for children. 20 DR. JOHNSON: That's also an excellent 21 point. 22 I maybe at this point will just add 23 that, because we know that children and the elderly 24 are more susceptible populations than adults, and 25 because we know that mixtures, we don't know as much Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 121 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 about the synergistic mixtures -- 3 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Right. 4 DR. JOHNSON: Because of those two 5 reasons, we set the standards usually hundreds of 6 times below a level that is known to cause health 7 effect. 8 We make margins of safety way, way, 9 way below what has been shown because of health 10 effect, because we know that we don't know how 11 sensitive children might be, we don't know how 12 sensitive the elderly might be, we don't know how 13 these mixtures often work. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Will you 15 proceed? 16 MS. CLARKE: Yes, thank you. The next 17 slide. 18 Basically after we cleared the 19 financial district, we moved -- well, we started 20 before this, but we really focused in on 21 site-specific, task-specific sampling, and we moved 22 in closer and closer to the rubble area. And what we 23 did is we sort of cleared the 90 square block around 24 the Keystone, the Plaza itself, plus Building 7, 25 however you want to describe it, and from September Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 122 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 22nd on we really focused in on areas where workers 3 would be most involved. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're talking 5 about workers in the ground zero area? 6 MS. CLARKE: Exactly. Workers dealing 7 with the recovery project. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So you did the 9 financial area and you did the work; are you doing 10 any of the other areas, any other places in the 11 nearby sections? I'm talking about people who work 12 in the nearby area, other than the ground zero and 13 the financial area? 14 MS. CLARKE: We moved in, what we 15 started in was the financial district, then we 16 looked at the 90 square block area around the rubble 17 pile, and started doing sampling in that area, 18 moving in, as we got the results and the results 19 were all low, no overexposure as we kept moving in, 20 and we were also at that time working on the pile, 21 as well. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: This is done 23 from testing outdoors, not indoors, right? 24 MS. CLARKE: Correct. 25 Well, yes. We had done some sampling Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 123 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in some of the surrounding buildings right in the 3 control zone. Some of the other buildings we've gone 4 in and where there were other workers working inside 5 those buildings doing clean-up, and we've done some 6 sampling for asbestos and silica, found no 7 overexposures for those workers as well. 8 But the methodology here was to try 9 to clear it and to move in and then to focus our 10 efforts on the workers who were actually doing the 11 recovery operation. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I just don't 13 want to give the impression the only thing we're 14 interested in is the ground zero and the financial 15 area. 16 MS. CLARKE: Oh, no, we do have -- 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We're concerned 18 about workers throughout the area. 19 MS. CLARKE: Certainly. Certainly. And 20 we have been looking at that. But the methodology 21 was set up to try to determine where the greatest 22 area of concern was and continued area of concern. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is that because 24 you had limited resources? 25 MS. CLARKE: No. Actually, I have had Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 124 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 over 500 OSHA people at this site, I have I think 3 2,500 tours of duty, I have 200 people from my 4 region who have been here constantly, and we have 5 about 75 people on the site every day. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do you have some 7 statistics as to where you did the testing and how 8 much testing you did? 9 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm just 11 concerned that we did sufficient number of testing 12 inside buildings, and not really outside the 13 buildings on the street. 14 MS. CLARKE: Well, the other thing is, 15 what we did is we tried to look at, come up with a 16 sampling methodology that would look for the highest 17 levels, and then work down, and try to make sure 18 that if the highest levels were of concern, we 19 wanted to get to those people first and make sure 20 they were protected. 21 We also continued sampling in this 22 area outside and in some of the buildings where 23 there were clean-up activities going on, until we 24 were comfortable that we knew what the 25 characterization was in those buildings. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 125 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Those haven't changed over time. And 3 on our web site, which is www.OSHA.gov, which I have 4 on another slide later on, there is a map, there are 5 several maps, and they're interactive, and you can 6 actually go to a portion of the map and click on 7 that and get all the back-up information, by 8 individual samples, by day, you can cut it different 9 ways. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We looked at 11 some of those websites and they seemed to be highly 12 technical. 13 I just wondered if all of you could 14 make them more simple so people like myself, who are 15 not experts, can understand them. 16 MS. CLARKE: It's interesting you 17 would say that, because I was talking to my boss, 18 who is the Assistant Secretary for OSHA and is a 19 safety and health professional, and he wanted all 20 that level of detail. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I don't mind the 22 detail, I just want to understand the detail. 23 MS. CLARKE: No, I understand. What we 24 did is, if you back up a little, there are summary 25 pages, the other thing that we do is, and I think Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 126 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that we handed it out to you, every few days we do a 3 summary compilation of all of our sampling 4 information, and we provide that at the site, we 5 have it passed out at the meetings that Bob talked 6 about earlier, we also provide it to the unions, the 7 stewards, the companies, and we provide it to the 8 other agencies, and that also is up on the web. So, 9 that gives you a general overview of all the 10 information. 11 If you don't want to get the real 12 specifics about individual samples. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Basically the 14 reason we are interested in the web site is it's 15 just a wonderful means of communication, which I, as 16 a non-technical person, am starting to learn, and 17 more people are being interested in this and using 18 the website as a communication, whereas you warn 19 people about everything, you give people 20 information, that is a very good way of doing it. 21 So, the simpler, the better, and more people get 22 information on that, and maybe some of the 23 television stations will carry some of this 24 information also. 25 You know when we have these ozone Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 127 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 alert situations, I haven't seen anything comparable 3 to that as far as what's going on in the World Trade 4 Center disaster, so that's one of the things that I 5 would be suggesting to people, that we have 6 something comparable. If this is going to go on for 7 some time, it should have been done before this. It 8 will be very important to do that. 9 And the other thing I was going to 10 mention, I'm very concerned that we really pay 11 attention to the confined spaces. 12 MS. CLARKE: Actually, confined spaces 13 isn't an area of concern. As a matter of fact, this 14 morning, earlier on my way over here we had some 15 people that were meeting on site dealing with just 16 that issue. 17 As the rubble pile has gone down and 18 we're getting to below grade in certain areas, that 19 is certainly an area that we have. 20 As the pile changes, I mean clearly 21 our feeling is that we're here for the long haul. We 22 know that this site changes every time you pull a 23 piece of steel, you move the rubble, you get below 24 ground, you get into areas where there may be some 25 materials that might be hazardous. There is big Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 128 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 concern and there is great cooperation, I think, on 3 a daily basis, discussing these. 4 Just at last, I think Friday's work 5 site Safety and Health meeting, there was materials 6 provided by the Port Authority where materials are 7 in the lower levels, and there was a discussion with 8 the contractors about entry to those levels, what it 9 means, how do we handle that. And that's why we're 10 continuing. 11 You're absolutely right, confined 12 spaces are an issue. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In that regard 14 you can't do all the confined spaces. Obviously 15 there are so many spaces around, and buildings from 16 time to time are put back on line and people can go 17 in; are you trying to get building owners and 18 managers to cooperate with you on proper clean-up 19 method? Are they being educated as to proper 20 clean-up methods, HEPA vacuum and other things like 21 that? 22 MS. CLARKE: I think the Department of 23 -- 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 25 Mr. Chairman, we can answer that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 129 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 We have been working with the Real 3 Estate Board, we have been working with the 4 realtors, the building owners, with regard to proper 5 clean up measures that are being taken. 6 Additionally, we have set up, since 7 day two, our DEP Help Line, again who has been out 8 there to answer any calls with regard to clean-ups, 9 any problems, and we've even put out to individuals, 10 and we've had calls come in, that we're reoccupying 11 at a certain point in time. 12 If they were not satisfied and happy, 13 we would tell them to first see their building 14 owner, their landlord, and if they're not happy with 15 the answer, we would go out and inspect, and we've 16 done that. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If Diane were 18 here she would tell you that during that few days 19 after the disaster, I had been on the phone with her 20 and people had given me different buildings which I 21 wanted to have inspected, and I understand she did 22 the inspections. 23 I just want to make sure you have the 24 cooperation and they do it the proper way, the 25 proper methods? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 130 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 3 We've certainly worked diligently with those folks. 4 We really emphasized the responsibility they had to 5 the public, folks reoccupying their buildings and we 6 are there to help individuals, as I said before, 7 that would have questions right now. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Then after they 9 were finished there would be some testing done to 10 make sure they did it properly? 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 12 We have been out at different locations. We've been 13 assisting, observing and ensuring that the proper 14 clean-ups were taking place. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that 16 operation remains to this day so if somebody has a 17 complaint, some workers have complaints, you would 18 respond to those? 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: 20 718-DEP-HELP, yes, sir. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Kathryn. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Yes. 23 I know that you've been out and sort 24 of helpful and FEMA has been helpful in trying to 25 solve some of the problems, but the ongoing problem Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 131 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that we have with a lot of buildings that remain 3 downtown, where the outer sides of buildings haven't 4 been cleaned, the sills, the roofs still have even 5 some of the original rubble. We have problems like, 6 for instance, the high-rise that I live in, where 7 because EPA has consistently said there is not a 8 problem, managers maintain that they don't have to 9 clean the outside of the building, that they don't 10 have to clean the inside, and as I pointed out, we 11 continually get redusted every day because we're 12 right by with the rubble removal, it's not just the 13 high-rise I'm in, it's true for a number of the 14 high-rises, and we don't know, you know, we haven't 15 gotten an answer. Our roofs still haven't been 16 cleaned, our terraces haven't been cleaned, and many 17 of the buildings downtown, I have to question that 18 they're using pressurized air on those buildings to 19 be cleaned off because they're being told that's 20 what they should do. But if you have the residue on 21 the building, and you're hitting it with pressurized 22 air that throws that all over the place, is that 23 really the proper protocol? 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: I 25 believe, Council Member, and as you know, we've Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 132 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 worked together on issues before, that we have a 3 situation where the buildings are being white-washed 4 -- wet-washed, excuse me. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Wet-washed 6 makes sense, before they do the pressurizing. 7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: The problem is 9 they're not doing that. 10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Where 11 you see a problem, an existing problem, we, again, 12 would be happy to take your call. 13 I just want to emphasize to you, you 14 mentioned if a building had been cleaned in the past 15 to our satisfaction, which would be your 16 satisfaction as well, needless to say, we would not 17 go out and keep continuing with cleaning, for 18 instance, if there were dust particles in the air, 19 because that would not be practical. I think you can 20 understand that. But if there is a problem, again, 21 we would refer the party to the building owner. If 22 the party is not satisfied, they can come back to us 23 and we will certainly mediate and intercede. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm going to 25 make a request. 250 Broadway. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 133 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Okay, 3 we will look at that. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please follow up 5 on it. 6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 7 MS. CALLAHAN: If I could, just for 8 our record today, I don't want anyone to interpret 9 the fact that because EPA is not measuring asbestos 10 in the air, that we are suggesting that anyone 11 should not fulfill their responsibilities to clean 12 up material that may be asbestos-containing material 13 in the proper way, and we would work with DEP staff 14 and with the health people to explain that to 15 anybody who believes that our data is suggesting 16 that they should not take on that responsibility. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: As you know, 18 buildings that's happened at, so, as I said, I will 19 give you some of the addresses afterwards. 20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: We 21 would be happy to. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Correct me if 23 I'm wrong, I am assuming that all of you are 24 agencies which have enforcement capabilities and 25 responsibilities. If you find that those regulations Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 134 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that you're enforcing are in violation that you're 3 giving tickets out? 4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 5 Chairman, we certainly are looking at that. As has 6 been suggested during the hearing, this has taken on 7 a different tone right now, when we've moved into a 8 construction site, in a construction phase. We were 9 trying to be very tolerant, obviously, when we were 10 in the rescue stage. We assisted people in their 11 efforts to reoccupy. We will be out there ensuring 12 that proper things are being done, and if not -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Hopefully the 14 period of tolerance should be over by now? 15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 16 the tolerance period is over, but this will still be 17 a work-in-progress. But our responsibility, as this 18 Committee has alluded to before, and that the Mayor 19 has alluded to it, is the people of the City of New 20 York, your constituency, our constituency. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Ms. Clarke. 22 MS. CLARKE: Thank you. 23 The next slide, please. 24 I'm not going to belabor this, as 25 we've talked quite a bit, as far as our standards Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 135 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 go, and workers are concerned, we have not found any 3 asbestos over our PEL, the standard for worker 4 exposure. We did find one out of over 200 silica 5 samples, it was on a task-specific operation in the 6 work zone, controlled within the green line, the 7 Plaza itself, and that's why we recommend that the 8 respiratory protection continue. 9 Talking about air contaminants from 10 the plumes, as has been suggested and discussed by 11 some of my colleagues, we are doing some sampling 12 here. We've done some screening sample for a variety 13 of things that would be coming out of a fire, or any 14 time you have a fire, and the next slide shows you 15 actually how we do this, as far as screening goes. 16 This is a myram (phonetic), it's 17 substance specific, we can check for different 18 substances, and we have done all of those that were 19 on the last slide, volatile organics, a wide range. 20 We, for instance, because of the 21 concern that there were some volatiles coming off of 22 the pile, the rubble pile itself, we wanted to do 23 some sampling, sort of a strategy to find out what 24 it was like if you were right in the plume, and we 25 moved back. And what we found, for instance, for Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 136 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 benzene, where our short-term exposure level is five 3 parts per million, if we were right in the plume 4 itself on a short-term exposure you could get it. 5 You move back ten feet and you get none detected. It 6 drops off really dramatically after you take it out. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: There is a 8 drop-off to safe levels? 9 MS. CLARKE: Yes, very, very much. 10 We've also done, if you can go -- 11 we've also done this personal sampling as I said. 12 The pumps that we use are a little bit different 13 than this and the devices are a little different for 14 an organic like benzene, instead of having this you 15 would have a charcoal tube and you get the material 16 on that and then you check it. But this shows -- 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are you also 18 testing for phosgene? 19 MS. CLARKE: Yes. I'll get to that. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is phosgene 21 Freon? Is that the same thing as Freon? 22 MS. CLARKE: It's a by-product of the 23 combustion of Freon. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You all know 25 that we no longer use Freon? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 137 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And it should be 4 removed because it's a dangerous substance? 5 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because of the 7 danger of becoming phosgene; is that correct? 8 MS. CLARKE: It can, yes, but I think 9 my colleague from DDC will probably -- could go into 10 the Freon issue on the site better than I could. I 11 will talk about what out sample results show. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sure. 13 MS. CLARKE: But first, again, we're 14 trying to determine what the workers are exposed to, 15 and these are not grab samples, they are just area 16 samples. These are personal exposures to try to find 17 out exactly what they're breathing in, and then 18 compare it to a comparable level, our permissible 19 exposure levels. 20 We did find cadmium, that was the 21 first hit we had, on an iron worker who was cutting 22 steel on the pile itself. 23 You notice we've also gotten about 24 seven percent of our heavy metals have shown levels 25 that exceeded the PEL. Iron oxide, the highest one Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 138 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 was five times the PEL. Lead was two times our 3 permission exposure level. Cadmium was around two. 4 Copper was about five times for the highest. 5 But really, out of the hundreds of 6 samples, this was really a very small percentage, 7 but it reinforces the fact that we do feel 8 task-specific sites on the pile, the workers need to 9 wear the respirators, because when they're either 10 cutting a steel or they're in the debris pile, 11 because sometimes the steel is moved from the rubble 12 pile itself to an area outside, we want to make sure 13 that's not just when they're on, in, over, under, at 14 that rubble pile, but also when they're ten feet 15 away, let's say, from the rubble pile. But still 16 well within the control zone, that they need to wear 17 that respirator. 18 This just gives you an example of 19 some iron workers who are cutting column, a vertical 20 column at Tower 2. They are using magnesium lances, 21 hence that, a lot of sparking that you're getting. 22 One of the things, this is one area 23 where we say, and if you notice, I hope you can see 24 it, he does have a respirator on. 25 Next slide. This one you can see more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 139 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 closely, the respirator he is wearing, those little 3 pink cartridges that are there. 4 One of the things that you find is, 5 the distance that you get from the source of the 6 generation of the contaminant, the farther away you 7 get, the better. It reduces exposure. So, we've 8 recommended, and they have gone to longer lances so 9 that they're farther removed from actually some of 10 the generation. 11 Also, if they can stand outside the 12 plume, obviously the second gentleman here is not in 13 the plume, he's standing away, that helps reduce his 14 exposure as well. 15 The plume is going to exist while 16 there is a fire burning, and the plume -- 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The plume still 18 exists, and how long will it exist for? 19 MS. CLARKE: Well, when you have fires 20 burning there will be a plume. Also, you have dust 21 generated when you move the debris. Although, there 22 is an enormous amount of dust suppression going on 23 at the site, both by the contractors and with the 24 assistance of the Fire Department. 25 We also looked at polynucleated Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 140 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 aromatic hydrocarbons called PNAs. It's something 3 that you would expect when there is a fire burning. 4 We did find about seven times the PEL. This was a 5 short-term exposure, one of these real grab sample 6 kind of things, and this is the kind of PNAs that 7 are typically the bad things that you find in 8 cigarette smoke, and it's been suggested to us that 9 probably that excess of the PEL is, smoking several 10 cigarettes is sort of the equivalent. 11 Again, that's why they need to wear 12 the respirators, the ones that I'll show you later 13 on, a picture of them, would handle this. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just let me ask 15 you this, and anyone can answer this: How do we 16 determine what the PEL is, Permissible Exposure 17 Limits? 18 MS. CLARKE: PEL is a term of art for 19 us, the Permissible Exposure Limits, it's the legal 20 limit. It's done by risk assessment. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Who does this, 22 and what is it based on? 23 MS. CLARKE: OSHA does it for our 24 particular standards, a similar kind of 25 standard-setting process would be done by EPA or any Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 141 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 other regulatory agency that sets the standard. You 3 generally look at a population of workers, or the 4 public or whomever, and you try to determine at what 5 level of contaminant an illness will occur, and then 6 you make your determination. That's sort of the risk 7 assessment. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And these have 9 been studies done in each one of these elements here 10 that we've been testing for? 11 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And it's based 13 upon -- 14 MS. CLARKE: It's exhaustive. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Based upon what 16 period of time? Because we're hanging our hat on 17 that to a great extent -- 18 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if we're 20 wrong, and the people are exposed to something that 21 they shouldn't be exposed to, then we're making a 22 terrible mistake, and I just want to be assured that 23 these PELs are accurate, and whether the other 24 agencies, whether something else they use but it is 25 probably the same thing and they are using that as a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 142 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 standard, but I want to make sure that we're having 3 the right standard. 4 MS. CLARKE: I can tell you that the 5 standard setting process is very, very long. There 6 is much review, much peer review. There are many, 7 many, many studies that go into the setting of a 8 particular level, and there is coordination among 9 the agencies, certainly at the federal level, and in 10 working together on -- 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you've all 12 agreed upon these various standards, whether it's 13 the PEL level or -- 14 MS. CLARKE: Well, remember, I 15 mentioned -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there any 17 disagreement among you as to the standards of any of 18 the, exposure to any of these -- 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 20 Chairman, if I may interject a point, as Mr., Dr. 21 Johnson alluded to before, what we've done, through 22 a collaborative effort, we set standards that were 23 highly conservative -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I understand 25 that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 143 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: And we 3 will use that barometer for anything we do in the 4 future. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you all 6 agreed upon these standards? 7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 8 we have come -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Not only you 10 individually, your agencies have? 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 12 our agencies not only agree, and it goes back to 13 this disaster that occurred on September 11, the 14 good that has come out, where I think we have spoken 15 with one voice, we've come together to really 16 fulfill the needs of the people -- 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Commissioner, 18 that's not my point. 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: -- 20 Just as your body does as well. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The point is 22 that these are standards that have been developed 23 way before the September 11th. 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Well, 25 the standards we're talking about, though, that we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 144 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are using, for instance, when we talk about asbestos 3 we are using indoor standards for the ambient. It's 4 not a standard -- 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: These are 6 standards developed from years past, right? 7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: It's a 8 standard. It's not an indoor standard. 9 We've applied these in other areas. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right, but these 11 are standards that have been developed over years as 12 to whether -- 13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 14 there is no question about it. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: This is 16 something we just didn't develop as part of the 17 September 11th-- 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: No. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We're using 20 standards that have been acceptable standards over 21 the years by the various agencies. 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: And 23 we've gone further, yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you've 25 agreed to these standards and you all coordinated, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 145 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 whether you call it PEL or you call it something 3 else, and you are operating under the same standard. 4 There is no disagreement as to what you think is the 5 proper standard? 6 MS. CLARKE: And that was why early on 7 I tried to explain the difference between the OSHA 8 and EPA standards, because ours are built for 9 workers, they are based upon the 40 hours, the 50 10 weeks, you know, the lifetime, versus an EPA 11 standard, which would be for the public. It's a 12 different level. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It should be 14 consistent. 15 MS. CALLAHAN: That's what we've tried 16 to do is make them consistent, and where on the 17 books they would have an apparent inconsistency, 18 collaborate and say for the circumstances related to 19 this World Trade Center attack situation, how do we 20 reconcile the differences to say for the workers 21 on-site first, and then as the core geographically, 22 and then for the people who work and reside in the 23 surrounding areas, how do we need to adjust the 24 standards, interpret the standards to make sure that 25 we're being sufficiently protective of them in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 146 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 circumstances that they're in right now? 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, when you say 4 you restrict the standards for best, I assume you 5 mean most conservative standards, as well? 6 MS. CALLAHAN: Exactly, yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And are you 8 using it for all the other materials you're testing 9 for it as well? The most conservative standard? The 10 strictest or the most conservative? 11 MS. CLARKE: I guess we would say most 12 protective. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Most protective, 14 which would be strictest, more conservative. And 15 that's a standard that you all agreed to and you all 16 are working on. 17 Is there any agency that is not 18 adhering to those standards? 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: No, 20 Mr. Chairman. 21 MS. CALLAHAN: No. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay, I'm sorry. 23 MS. CLARKE: Okay. 24 I talked a little bit about benzene 25 before when I showed you the slide of taking the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 147 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Myran screening sample. CO, someone suggested before 3 that that can be a problem if you're working in a 4 confined space. 5 We did have an incident early on of a 6 rescue worker having a problem because they were 7 using a gas-operated tool in an enclosed space. 8 We've tried to work on that, as far as not using 9 them. There are alternatives. Also local exhaust 10 ventilation, blowers that can be used, and the good 11 news is that generally the CO levels at the site are 12 very, very low. They may have some peak, but this 13 does not seem to be a problem. And certainly 14 decomposition at fires causes CO levels, so that's 15 going to be something, again, that we need to keep 16 an eye on. 17 And one of the contractors actually 18 had put in additional supplied air for their cabs of 19 their heavy equipment, their grapplers and the 20 cranes, so that the operators of the cabs will be 21 isolated from those exposures, so that's good 22 because the one overexposure we did have was a 23 grappler operator, so that helped to address that. 24 Dioxins, we have been doing some 25 additional sampling, and this is the thing, this is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 148 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 something that, again, is very similar to when I 3 talked about the benzene, where it's actually in the 4 plume itself, and as soon as you move a few feet 5 away from the plume, you're not getting anything. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Where are the 7 dioxins coming from? Where are they emanating from? 8 MS. CLARKE: It's coming from, again, 9 the fire. The decompensation. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What was in 11 these buildings that produced dioxins? 12 MS. CLARKE: Boy, that's a -- 13 plastics. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just plastics. 15 And the PCBs? 16 MS. CLARKE: Plastics. And 17 transformers. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Transformers. 19 MS. CLARKE: The liquids in the 20 transformers. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right. 22 MS. CLARKE: Just to let you know -- 23 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: What were the 24 responses -- I'm sorry, I couldn't see from over 25 here, what were the results of the dioxins? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 149 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CLARKE: We did find a hit when we 3 were right in the plume. When we moved out we didn't 4 find it, and we're doing some more samples. We're 5 continuing to try to assess, but it was in one of 6 those areas that's basically right where the fires 7 are emanating from in the center of the Plaza. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Because one of 9 the questions I would have is that, that's true for 10 like where 1 and 2 World Trade Center were, but, for 11 instance, have you been doing 7? 12 MS. CLARKE: Oh, yes. Yes. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Because 7 14 continues to burn and 7 was built over a 15 transformer. 16 MS. CLARKE: 7 isn't burning. And 7 is 17 pretty much gone. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The pile. I saw 19 it. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, the pile 21 is still there. 22 MS. CLARKE: No, it's not even a pile. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: I look at it 24 out of my kitchen window. 25 MS. CLARKE: You're looking at below Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 150 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 grade. 3 MR. ADAMS: I would invite you to come 4 down and take a look, it's gone. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: I know they 6 moved a lot of it over, but I still see -- 7 MR. ADAMS: It might be some of the 8 remnants of the other building that you're actually 9 seeing. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 11 MS. CLARKE: The fires are really in 12 the plaza area. We have thermal imaging that have 13 been done by DDC, and it's real clear to see where 14 the fires are. 15 MS. CALLAHAN: And I hate to interrupt 16 my colleague's presentation, but since the question 17 is on the floor, we're doing twice a week sampling 18 for PCBs and dioxins in the air, and so that, you 19 know, whatever the source of the contamination might 20 be, and those monitors are off-site, they're not on 21 the pile, and, so, they would be a good indicator of 22 what the community might be exposed to. And we are 23 finding some that at very low levels in most places, 24 the places where we're finding them, that they are a 25 level to be concerned about, in terms of longer term Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 151 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 exposures, are either on the pile or right at the 3 edge of a pile in an area where there isn't any, you 4 know, reoccupancy permitted right now. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: All right. 6 Because, I mean, I have seen some of the data that 7 the Environmental Law On Justice Project had filed a 8 FOIL request for, because we hadn't seen them 9 before, that do tend to show, particularly some of 10 them, and things like benzene that tend to spike 11 somewhere where they've actually been off the pile, 12 and they've been really high at some points. One 13 case I think, and these are your figures, 45 times 14 higher than the recommended level. I mean, how does 15 that happen? 16 MS. CALLAHAN: The higher level 17 readings that we have were either on the pile or on 18 the very perimeter of the pile, with regard to 19 dioxins and benzenes, and we'd be glad to go over 20 the data. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 22 MS. CALLAHAN: While that material was 23 FOIL'd, we're glad to give it out to anybody who 24 wants it, and we are trying to get it up on 25 computers so that even the academic world, which is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 152 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 actually a question that came up earlier, will 3 ultimately have access to this data, but we're 4 available to help try to interpret it, and to make 5 it available to anyone who wants it. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Did anyone 7 measure mercury? 8 MS. CALLAHAN: We have been looking at 9 metals, and I believe mercury is included, yes. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: I will tell 11 you, my concern was that initially, because there 12 were all the fluorescent lights, and with every 13 fluorescent light has a little bit of mercury in it, 14 and it would seem to me that when the towers came 15 down, all that mercury must have been released at 16 the time, and I was curious, and I was curious, and 17 I have no knowledge, other than I know that it would 18 have been there, where it would have gone or what 19 would have happened to it if it volatilized, where 20 it came down, if it came down, I'm kind of ignorant 21 on that. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's not listed 23 -- 24 MS. CLARKE: We actually did mercury. 25 We do it when we do all of the metals, so I'm trying Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 153 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to find my slide on how many metals. 3 On the summary sheet, if you noticed, 4 I don't think we found any mercury at all, that was 5 I think 600 and some metals were done. We do all of 6 them at the same time. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What happened to 8 all the mercury in all of these fluorescent lights? 9 I have my office in a building and I know they have 10 a lot of fluorescent lights in these buildings. 11 MS. CLARKE: I misspoke, it's 293 12 heavy metal samples were collected and none of those 13 showed mercury. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So what happened 15 to the mercury? 16 Does anybody want to -- 17 MS. CLARKE: Vaporized, I suspect. 18 The temperatures when the fire was 19 burning were phenomenal. I would say it vaporized. 20 We had some of our experts come in, 21 if you noticed, to do some ionizing radiation and 22 they also have looked at some other issues, and that 23 was their theory, that the temperatures were so, so 24 intense that this just vaporized. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And when they Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 154 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 vaporized they didn't cause a problem? 3 MS. CLARKE: It's gone. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's gone some 5 place. 6 MS. CLARKE: Well, it was so dispersed 7 and so diluted now by everything. I mean, we 8 continue to take those and we have not had one hit 9 on mercury. I mean it's "none detected" comes up. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you have a 11 testing mechanism to find out if there is mercury in 12 the air? 13 MS. CLARKE: Oh, yes. 14 All of the samples that we take, we 15 have them analyzed for all of the heavy metals. We 16 don't just have them just do lead, we have them do 17 lead, cadmium, copper, it's about 25 or so metals 18 and substances they look for. And mercury is one in 19 the group and none was detected. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Did you find 21 anything that surprised you in these that you didn't 22 expect in any of these testing? 23 MS. CLARKE: Not really. I mean, when 24 we look at the volatile organic compounds, the PNAs, 25 the other things, it's basically the substances that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 155 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are burning and they're combustion products, what 3 you would get in a fire, especially a fire -- 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: These reports 5 are all available to us, right? 6 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'd like to take 8 a look at some of these. 9 MS. CLARKE: Certainly. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Can I ask one 11 other quick question? 12 You did find, I think, significant 13 amounts of copper, and, you know, I keep asking 14 about the synergism, my understanding is that copper 15 can be a catalyst for a number of different 16 interactions; have you looked at that at all? Have 17 you seen anything in that? 18 MS. CLARKE: I might point out, we 19 found one overexposure that was five times our PEL, 20 and I should also explain that we're almost being 21 the most protective when we establish how many times 22 the PEL. Normally we would -- I am trying to think 23 of how to describe this. 24 Normally we would count for the time 25 that they're not exposed as zero. This time we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 156 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 didn't, we just counted the whole amount of time of 3 the sample, and, so, it actually would result in 4 sort of a higher level. That's even being more 5 protective. And there was only one sample like that, 6 it was again an iron-worker on the pile. The vast 7 majority, all of those other 293, I think there were 8 maybe five other ones that were over. But out of, 9 you know, 290 some were okay. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Many of these 11 tests are outside of the ground zero area? 12 MS. CLARKE: Most of the metals are 13 actually in the pile itself. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The reason I am 15 asking you is I assume you are making the assumption 16 that if the levels are within the PEL, inside the 17 ground zero, that outside of ground zero you're not 18 going to have those problems. 19 MS. CLARKE: That's a good assumption, 20 but we also -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm not making 22 the assumption, you're doing it. 23 MS. CLARKE: Yes, and it is a good 24 assumption. 25 We also, if you recall, started out Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 157 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 by sampling outside and continually moving in when 3 we didn't get any detected levels. Then we moved in 4 closer and closer. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you're still 6 trying to sample outside ground zero for some of 7 these things? Or because you didn't find it, you are 8 no longer doing it? 9 MS. CLARKE: We are mostly doing just 10 within the control zone and in the perimeter of 11 them. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The reason I ask 13 is because I've been reading several areas, several 14 documents on this, and I seem to think that the 15 weather pattern where the air is being blown is very 16 dangerous in the fall, this time of year, as a 17 result of the weather conditions, the sun, the less 18 heat coming up from the ground. If heat comes up it 19 causes the air to rise, and maybe dissipates that 20 much quicker. 21 MS. CLARKE: I think I'm going to 22 refer that to my colleague who has the environment 23 rather than the work place. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, please, 25 would you explain that? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 158 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm not a meteorologist 3 but -- 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm sure you've 5 read the same articles I have on -- 6 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes, and our staff 7 contributed to the information. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: -- On the effect 9 on the weather conditions. 10 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes, it is true that in 11 the fall the nature of the changing weather patterns 12 from the summer into the cold weather of winter 13 creates a greater probability that you may have 14 inversions where the air is static over the City. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is that because 16 of the lack of heat on the ground? 17 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm not going to be 18 able to explain to you the intricacies of it, though 19 I will be glad to get a meteorologist to do it, but 20 it happens. And that means that the materials that 21 are in the area of the City are going to stay lower 22 to the ground and therefore we're all going to be 23 more exposed to them for the periods of inversions. 24 And one of the things that we are 25 trying to do at EPA on an ongoing basis, we're doing Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 159 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 some monitoring. But when we see situations where an 3 inversion is occurring, we try to -- such as in 4 early October we had a couple of days we did an 5 additional round of sampling to try to identify what 6 that meant relative to what we see on a more routine 7 basis, we don't have the results from that one yet, 8 but when we get them we'll put them out and it is 9 something that we have to keep track of. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And it happens 11 during the time of day, because I come down here 12 sometimes, we have a pretty good day and we don't 13 smell anything, and then sometimes I come down and 14 the odor is terrible. 15 Last night, and because I stayed here 16 probably later than I usually stay preparing for 17 this hearing, I came out of the office of 250 and 18 you could almost taste everything. 19 MS. CALLAHAN: It's also very true 20 that the nature of the meteorology when the wind is 21 moving also is very variable in this downtown area. 22 We actually have also gotten some 23 people from the Department of Interior to bring 24 weather machines that will monitor for a variety of 25 factors, humidity, wind speed and direction, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 160 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 they're trying to help us see if there are patterns. 3 Thus far, though, what we're seeing 4 is that it's just very variable, the nature of the 5 kind of urban wind canyons -- 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's almost a 7 canyon-like situation. 8 MS. CALLAHAN: And we haven't found 9 anything that there is a particular area that is 10 prevalently hit. It seems quite variable that, you 11 know, you'll be on one side of the plume, and it 12 won't be so bad, on the other side, it's quite bad. 13 Three hours later in the day, it can be the reverse. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It depends on 15 the winds. 16 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes, but it's also, 17 it's not just what the prevailing wind is, because 18 it's a more localized affect that it's occurring, 19 and so, we're trying to use the data from these 20 machines to help us understand, is anybody being 21 more disproportionately impacted than anybody else, 22 and so far it's just so variable that we're all I 23 think -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do you test at 25 night as well? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 161 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm not certain of the 3 answer. I will have to check on that. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Will you find 5 out on that? 6 MS. CALLAHAN: I think they run 24 7 hours. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because I think 9 you are going to find, from what I've been hearing 10 from other people, at night the odors seem to be 11 much worse. 12 MS. CALLAHAN: I'll follow-up on that 13 for you. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, actually, 15 Stanley, every time they test, they also find for 16 some reason everything spikes at midnight, which we 17 haven't been able to figure out. 18 You know, like I live just three 19 blocks north of the Trade Center, and it seems to 20 get really -- I don't know if it's a pattern or 21 whatever. 22 I have one question, though. Has 23 anyone looked into the possibility, or have you 24 considered the possibility of trying to actually 25 contain the site itself? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 162 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. ADAMS: Actually, I will take a 3 shot at that one. 4 There have been some discussions 5 about whether or not we could do that, mostly 6 because of the winter weather coming. 7 I don't know what the outcome of that 8 was, but we actually did have experts who came in 9 that were involved with like the Millennium Dome, 10 and they looked at it, but I don't know what the 11 status of that is, but I do know that they were 12 looking at it as one option. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Short of that is 14 there any other option? Is there another way of 15 dissipating the air? 16 Is there any other -- 17 MR. ADAMS: We're constantly assessing 18 the situations there on a day-by-day basis. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Bring in a 20 couple thousand helicopters -- 21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 22 Chairman, we will get that and we will be glad to 23 come back to you. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Would you 25 please? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 163 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Sure. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Ms. Clarke. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: Thank you. 5 I think the issue has come up how do 6 we get the information out? And for us, getting 7 information to the employees is very important. We 8 are providing written information back to everyone 9 we sample who gives us their name and address, some 10 of them don't want to do that. We have actually 11 gotten information back to 327 employees as of this 12 date. Fourteen of those were overexposures, they 13 were notified. And when we do that, we talk to them 14 about what the results mean. We make a 15 recommendation that they seek medical evaluation, 16 depending upon what the substance might be, we might 17 make some other recommendations. 18 We're also sharing the sampling 19 information, such as the one that we share with you 20 today, we produce that summary like almost every 21 other day. We have that out at the site, at the 22 respirator check and fit station. We provide it with 23 our stamplers who are at the site. We are providing 24 it to all of our sister agencies here, and, again, 25 it's up on the website. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 164 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 But considering that the employees 3 are at the site so long, and they also may not have 4 access to computers, if they're from out of town, so 5 we want to try to get hard copies to them, so that's 6 why we've been using stewards' meetings and 7 contractor meetings and really trying to get the 8 word out. 9 Basically, we feel that we need to 10 continue to all recommend the use of properly fitted 11 effective respiratory protection for the employees. 12 We do think that from our analysis, all of our risk 13 assessment, that what we're recommending right now, 14 and if you go to the next slide you can see, these 15 are two of our people, our samplers, who are 16 actually fitted up with what the employees would be 17 wearing, minus the colorful vests and the OSHA 18 hardhat. These are samplers who actually are in and 19 around the rubble pile, so we have them wearing 20 this. These are the triple combination cartridges. 21 They protect against, they are P 100, that's for the 22 very fine particulates. They also protect against 23 organic vapors and acid gases, and those would be, 24 we think appropriate, and certainly are appropriate 25 for anything that we're finding, even the very few Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 165 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 spikes that we're finding for the people who are 3 working on the rubble pile or doing these 4 site-specific, like cutting steel, or moving some of 5 the debris if it's dry, and they are working in that 6 for a long period of time. That's what we consider 7 the appropriate protection. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How long are 9 these good for, before they have to be changed? 10 MS. CLARKE: We recommend that they 11 change cartridges at least once a shift, and if they 12 have trouble breathing, because that means it's 13 overloaded, would be from particulate, or if they 14 can smell something, that would mean there was 15 breakthrough from the organic. Most people don't 16 have those two things happen so normally they change 17 out at the end of a shift. Those are also available, 18 the extra cartridges, at the fit stations that we 19 have at the site, and also our little gator 20 operation. The contractors also have those. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, these are 22 being supplied by you to anyone who needs them, and 23 you have cartridges in sufficient numbers? 24 MS. CLARKE: Yes. 25 Actually, the response from the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 166 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 respirator manufacturers, as well as other personal 3 protective manufacturers, has been enormous. We have 4 hundreds of thousands of this stuff that has come 5 into the City. The National Guard is serving as our 6 quartermaster. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let me ask you 8 this: Have you been monitoring the health of these 9 workers? And do we know what the statistics are with 10 respect to their health? 11 MS. CLARKE: The Department of Health 12 actually has some numbers. I do want to make it 13 clear, though, that it's not -- their numbers are 14 more intervention through the DMAT, or the 15 hospitals. We're actually working with the 16 contractors looking at their OSHA log to make sure 17 that we can see the trends of the more serious 18 issues. 19 The OSHA logs require them to record 20 things other than first aid. The DOH numbers are 21 probably a little bit higher because they would 22 cover, if you go in for a band-aid. For instance, I 23 had to go into one of the first aid stations on 24 Sunday, because I didn't have the right socks on and 25 so I had a blister and I needed a band-aid. That's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 167 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 probably in their results for that day as an 3 intervention. That would not normally be on an OSHA 4 log. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Basically what 6 I'm interested in. You talked about standards and 7 the PEL and everything like that, the best 8 indication that I would know of, as to the effect of 9 the air quality at the site, would be the health of 10 the workers themselves and their exposure and 11 whether or not they have complaints, which are 12 linked to the air quality there. 13 Do we have any statistics as to 14 whether or not these workers have been getting sick 15 and are developing various ailments as a result from 16 the quality of air at the site? 17 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The 18 Health Department has been collecting the forms from 19 the DMATs to see how many workers went to the DMATs 20 and then how many were transferred -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What's DMATs? 22 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: It's 23 Disest (phonetic) Medical Assistance Team. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is that on site? 25 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 168 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 There are a few of them on the site. 3 That's not to say if people go 4 separately to the Emergency Department we will have 5 all that information at this time. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Don't you think 7 it's important that somebody collect this 8 information, not only from DMATs, or from whatever 9 place you know, to go to these various hospitals and 10 clinics and visit some of the doctors, if there are 11 other complaints? Because it's really important to 12 get information as to what's happening to these 13 workers. 14 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: We 15 do know the Emergency Department visits from the 16 DMAT sites, and we have numbers on those, and do 17 bi-weekly reports at this time, twice a week reports 18 at this time. That's what we have. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do they give you 20 the diagnosis and causal connection? 21 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: When 22 they go and visit -- I mean, sometimes you don't 23 even know the causal connections. Some of it people 24 are going in for stomach aches they had from the day 25 before. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 169 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You don't know, 3 but if it happens and it's sufficient statistically, 4 numbers of statistics, then you could draw some 5 conclusions. 6 But I think this is a valuable piece 7 of information that nobody is looking at right now 8 in an analytical way. Do you agree? 9 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: We 10 are looking at the numbers who are going to the 11 emergency departments from the DMATs centers. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is anybody 13 collecting the information from all of the areas who 14 are giving medical attention -- throughout the area, 15 the various hospitals in the metropolitan area? Are 16 they following through with workers who are not 17 reporting to work the next day because they got sick 18 and finding out what their conditions are? 19 I think it's something we should know 20 about, don't you? 21 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 22 Well, I think also people are not necessarily going 23 to emergency departments or others. I mean, they go 24 to private doctors -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's what I'm Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 170 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 talking about, trying to get statistics from them. 3 But people, some of the people are volunteers, but 4 most of the people down there are working for 5 contractors or for the City or whether it be police, 6 fire, or whoever they are, and they have records as 7 to their membership and whether they are getting 8 sick and taking sick days, and it's something that 9 ought to be done to try and coordinate this to find 10 out whether or not there is any causal connection 11 between their sickness and the work they've been 12 doing, and the exposure that they've had. 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: And 14 I think the agencies themselves are doing it 15 internally for their own staff. 16 I know Fire has been working on doing 17 assessments of their staff, as well as working on a 18 registry of all firefighters who were down at the 19 site at the time. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But the answer 21 is nobody is really coordinating all of this, for 22 anybody who is involved in the area or near the 23 area, to see if there is some people who have been 24 affected by this -- 25 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 171 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 There actually is a worker registry that's being 3 developed at this time, so I think that's something 4 that we're moving toward. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I would commend 6 that you do something like that, to try to find it, 7 because that's really what they call the truth as to 8 what's happening here. 9 I mean, we're hearing statistics, 10 we're hearing all sorts of testimony, and 11 standardization, but how it's affecting the people 12 who are there, and maybe it did come from something 13 else, but if you have sufficient statistics of 14 people complaining about the same type of ailment, 15 you may know there is a problem. And not only just 16 talking about workers, I'm talking about anybody who 17 is exposed to the air quality in that area. 18 I think something should be done on 19 that. You know, it's a difficult job, very hard to 20 do, it may not be as accurate as you'd like to have 21 it, but it is valuable statistics; don't you agree? 22 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 23 think as much information as we can get is valuable 24 and I think you're right, some of it is hard to get 25 at and some of it needs more coordination. But I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 172 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 think that approach the Health Department is taking 3 now to doing this worker registry hopefully will 4 lead to some of what you're suggesting. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if you find 6 problems, you may even have to revise your standards 7 of your PELs. 8 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 9 Absolutely. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's the 11 point. We should garner some things from this that 12 we could possibly use in the future, God forbid we 13 should ever have to face this type of disaster 14 again. But we should try to learn from it. We didn't 15 ask for it, it happened, we are trying to do things 16 about it, do something about it, but it's important 17 that we take whatever information we can so that we 18 can use it in the future. 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 20 Chairman, your point is well taken and we will take 21 that back. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: For 24 the first few weeks the Health Department was 25 reviewing emergency department records of everyone Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 173 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 who came in as part of their surveillance activity 3 at that time, with help from CDC who sent in lots of 4 people to do that. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And it's 6 important in the sense that this is the short-term 7 effect. It may be we want to know who these people 8 are to see what their long-term effect is also. 9 Thank you very much. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Stanley, can I 11 just -- 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. I think Mr. 13 Sabini had a question he wanted to ask. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Thank you, 15 Chairman. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And then Ms. 17 Boyland and then Ms. Freed. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: I apologize 19 being late to the hearing, so some of these may have 20 been asked and answered, but one of my prior lives 21 was working as an environmental lobbyist, and I just 22 wanted to ask EPA a couple of questions. 23 With regard to ACM, were there wipe 24 tests done in the buildings that were evacuated 25 before people were allowed back in? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 174 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CALLAHAN: No, we did not do 3 indoor sampling. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: You didn't do 5 indoor air sampling or wipe tests? 6 MS. CALLAHAN: Wipe tests are really 7 not appropriate for asbestos containing materials. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: They have been 9 done in some cases. 10 MS. CALLAHAN: My understanding is 11 they are not reliable, and, so, we don't use them. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: No air 13 sampling either? 14 MS. CALLAHAN: Not indoor air 15 sampling. Our focus has been on the outdoor air and 16 on the outdoor part of the community. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Now, there 18 were reports that the EPA web site stopped being 19 updated for awhile, the information that you were 20 giving out, that there was a down time of about a 21 week, I was told, and, of course, theorists said the 22 down time was due to the fact you didn't want people 23 to know what was in the tests? 24 MS. CALLAHAN: There have been I think 25 a couple of periods where we have had some down Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 175 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 time. 3 First, let me say, it has absolutely 4 nothing to do with what the results of the tests 5 were. 6 It has far more to do with the 7 complexity of the database that we're trying to 8 create, and the ability to get that updated in a 9 way, and then presented to the public in a way that 10 it is comprehensible. And we've run into technical 11 glitches where the methodology that we've used to 12 transfer the data automatically have broken down and 13 had to be repaired, and I think that was the one 14 where we had the five day. 15 And there have been a couple of other 16 situations where someone looked at the data and 17 said, wait, this piece looks anomalous, it's not 18 expressed in the same way the others were, you know, 19 is this a systematic problem? We've stopped, we've 20 looked at it. There is absolutely no reason why we 21 would keep data from the public. If there were a 22 situation where the data was indicative of an 23 immediate problem, to the contrary, we wouldn't be 24 putting it up on the web site, we would be going out 25 in a much more aggressive way to the public to tell Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 176 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 them that. 3 We don't like to be the barer of bad 4 news, but that's our job sometimes, so I just can't 5 sort of use strong enough terms to reassure you on 6 that. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: So, during 8 this glitch period, you did testing, there just 9 wasn't the mechanics available to you to get it on 10 the web site. 11 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. 12 There have been a few situations 13 where we had periods on certain monitors where we 14 didn't get testing, that sort of thing, and we 15 haven't stopped testing for any extended period of 16 time anywhere. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Why was it 18 then so difficult for people to get the results of 19 those tests during that period of time? 20 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm not so sure if it 21 was difficult for people -- 22 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: My 23 understanding is that the agency refused to give it 24 out. 25 MS. CALLAHAN: We're responded to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 177 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 public calls. We have a hot line. I don't believe 3 we've refused to give data out to anyone. We have 4 hard copies of the data as we get it in, that has 5 sometimes been the only way in which we could get 6 the material out to people, but, you know, when 7 we've got it, we're ready to make it available. So, 8 if there were some glitches in getting it out to 9 people, they were glitches, they were not by any 10 sort of massive design. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Is it then 12 true that people had to file Freedom of Information 13 Requests to get that information during that period 14 of time? 15 MS. CALLAHAN: We have had Freedom of 16 Information Requests filed. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Why wouldn't 18 you just give it out? If it was available and it was 19 just this technical glitche -- 20 MS. CALLAHAN: We would. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Okay, there 22 are over 300 stories of building, high-tech building 23 came down in the course of time, and in those 24 offices were a variety of things, we've talked about 25 fluorescent lights, we've talked about asbestos and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 178 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 fiberglass, office machinery has lots of things in 3 it that isn't particularly good for the human body, 4 toner cartridges, copying machines have things in it 5 that aren't particularly good, computers, obviously, 6 and that is somewhere in the air, and I'm just 7 wondering, are there things that you had to 8 formulate to test for, that you wouldn't normally 9 test for on the site because you wouldn't have these 10 kinds of things airborne? 11 MS. CALLAHAN: What we've done is test 12 very broadly for materials. Volatile organics, we 13 must have a list of, you know, 150 or more, 14 volatiles that we've tested for, just to try to be 15 as comprehensive as possible. 16 We haven't done any sort of research 17 from scratch, because we believe most of these 18 materials are known in the world of analytical 19 techniques. You know, they occur in other kinds of 20 fires, obviously not on as massive a scale as 21 occurred here. So, we think we've tested pretty 22 broadly. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: But also in a 24 fire things aren't pulverized, and I'm just 25 wondering what the effect, and I know EPA has labs, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 179 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I used to work for the House of Representatives 3 Committee that had jurisdiction over EPA, what 4 happens when you pulverize a toner cartridge? What 5 comes out of it that is potentially hazardous to 6 human beings? 7 MS. CALLAHAN: I can't answer that 8 question myself personally. We have chemists on our 9 staff who could and who could correlate what we're 10 saying. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: And have they 12 consulted with -- has the agency consulted with 13 those professionals on this? 14 MS. CALLAHAN: With the chemists on 15 our staff? Sure, those are the guys who are doing 16 the analytical work for us. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Yes. 18 MS. CALLAHAN: They bring the results 19 to me, and they interpret it for me. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Thank you, Mr. 21 Chairman. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Council Member 23 Boyland. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Thank you 25 very much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 180 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 In lieu of the tragedy members, I've 3 lost family members and a lot of friends in this 4 process, and this is very painstaking to my family 5 to even talk about this process, but I think it must 6 be talked about still. 7 Some of the questions that I have 8 are: 9 One, I had heard a rumor, I think 10 this is the best place to kind of alleviate those 11 rumors, that there is a bathtub, or a suspended wall 12 that separates the World Trade Center from, if not 13 our drinking water, the Hudson River, and that there 14 might be some contaminants that we're talking about 15 because of the air that is now going to seep into 16 the Hudson River, or worse, our drinking water; one, 17 is that true? And give me some insight on that. Let 18 me go to the second question, and third question, 19 and you will answer them all together, if possible. 20 Who is splitting the bill in terms of 21 the clean-up? Is it just, we were told that the 22 reconstruction, the clean-up, there's going to be a 23 lot of pressure that's going to be put on the City, 24 in terms of how we do the clean-up, the 25 construction, the rebuilding of the area and the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 181 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 restructuring of our entire City that has been 3 damaged; how are we going to alleviate that in terms 4 of, one, the apartment buildings, the businesses, 5 the co-ops and just the entire excavation of the 6 site? 7 And, three, I have very good friends 8 that their children go to the schools or day care 9 facilities surrounding the World Trade Center, one, 10 they're traumatized, but, two, when they return back 11 or their going to, their day care center has topsoil 12 in the playground area and sand; have there been the 13 level of contamination that they need to sort of do 14 things, and what do they need to do to repair life 15 back to normal? We will start with question one. 16 MR. ADAMS: I guess I will take the 17 question of the bathtub, at least to the best that I 18 can handle that question. 19 As you know, the original 20 construction of the World Trade Center, it was 21 necessary to build a foundation wall essentially to 22 hold back I believe the Hudson River, and as such, 23 they built was is known as a slurry wall, 24 approximately a three foot thick wall that was, the 25 technique is a little bit difficult to get into. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 182 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Again, I'm not a structural engineer here. But that 3 slurry wall, over time, of course, has had leaks in 4 it, water has come in, but as far as any 5 contaminants rushing out into the Hudson, really 6 what it is, is the pressure on the wall from the 7 River itself. Contaminants aren't going out, the 8 River would be coming in. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Oh. 10 MR. ADAMS: And we have been looking 11 at the water that's in the bathtub, and we have had 12 tests done, and I don't remember, I think EPA had 13 some of the tests early on and I don't recollect the 14 actual results, but I don't remember that there was 15 any contaminant that was a significant issue, but 16 maybe EPA could field that question. 17 MS. CALLAHAN: We have tested the 18 drinking water intakes as an extraordinary effort. I 19 mean, the City of New York does that on a very 20 regular basis, and they can speak to that. But we 21 did a one-time sampling of 13 areas around the City 22 that are the typical sort of sampling intake points, 23 and we found no exceedences of any standard levels. 24 In fact, what we found was the water supply was 25 quite normal. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 183 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Okay, no 3 contaminants in the water? 4 MS. CALLAHAN: No contaminants. 5 And we also did some testing of the 6 rivers, and what we found was in one situation where 7 we were testing runoff, we did find some 8 contaminants, but it was basically material that was 9 running off of the World Trade Center site and so 10 there were some contaminants in the first round of 11 samples. The sampling event that we did subsequently 12 didn't show elevated levels, and also, in the 13 ambient water that we sampled, in the Hudson River 14 and the East River, we also did some background 15 samples up around the George Washington Bridge, and 16 compared them and they were very comparable, and we 17 also sort of looked at historical data that the 18 State of New York has collected, using very low 19 level detection to detect leaks, to identify what 20 levels of contaminants were in the water, and we 21 found that our samples were very consistent with 22 what they found. 23 So, we don't believe there have been 24 any significant increases in contamination in the 25 waters around New York City as a result of this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 184 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 attack. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Okay. 4 The second question in regards to the 5 footing of the bill, in terms of who will -- will 6 this bounce back on just New York City? Or will we 7 do a federal, in terms of will the federal 8 government jump in and support this effort, and will 9 they continue to support this effort, as long as it 10 takes? 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: 12 Council member, first of all, we're sorry for your 13 loss. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Thank you. 15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: This 16 is a work-in-progress, obviously. We've gotten great 17 assistance. 18 We at DEP are preparing, you know, 19 our expenditures right now, our expenses looking at 20 that, and we will compile on that, we will work with 21 FEMA. That's a work-in-progress. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: So that means 23 that in terms of, you're still working in terms of 24 who's going to be able to pay for it. This is going 25 to be an ongoing process, I know. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 185 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 3 you're very right, it is an ongoing process. We will 4 be working with the various agencies who will have 5 given us the support. As we said before, away from 6 the expense side, we work in a collaborative way to 7 do what we had to do and we will be working in that 8 regard, and then we've gotten support thus far and 9 we anticipate getting support in the future. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: And you will 11 keep us updated as well? 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 13 we certainly will. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: And the last 15 question is regards to area, playground sand, dirt, 16 gravel. I'm asking that question because I have a 17 lot of friends that have children that went to day 18 care center schools in that area, and not only are 19 their children traumatized, but they want to know 20 when will some normalcy come back to their 21 educational environment, as well as what they, in 22 terms of looked at as a school? 23 MS. CALLAHAN: EPA has, in 24 consultation with the City and the Department of 25 Parks, identified park and playground areas in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 186 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 downtown area, and brought our HEPA vacuum trucks 3 and cleaned up those parks, vacuumed sandboxes out, 4 in a number of instances basketball courts, washed 5 them down and tried to make them safe and clean for 6 the users, whether they be young kids or older 7 athletes, so that life can be a little bit normal. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: And the last 9 question, and I just want to throw this, do you 10 think it would be wise for the residents of the area 11 around the World Trade Center, to continue to wear 12 their mask, or do they continue to -- we're talking 13 about asbestos, fibrin, things in the air. The 14 Chairman brought up long-term issues, in terms of 15 health issues, do you think it would be wise for 16 them to continue to do so? 17 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: In 18 terms of asbestos, it's not really asbestos in the 19 air now and we haven't gotten any elevation since 20 mid-October, early, mid-October. As far as asbestos, 21 there is no need for anything. 22 In terms of wearing a mask, if people 23 are uncomfortable, in terms of the particles in the 24 air, they can wear a mask. We're not recommending 25 that it's needed for everyone working in or living Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 187 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in the downtown area, because some people are just 3 not as bothered by the dust in the air at this 4 point. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: There are 6 people that are still receiving -- they have 7 headaches, they have breathing problems as of now. I 8 talked to someone yesterday that works on Gold 9 Street, she's almost dizzy when she wakes up in the 10 morning. 11 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: And 12 clearly, if it's more comfortable to wear a mask, 13 they should wear a mask when they are outside. 14 In their homes, if they're using 15 proper precautions, if there is dust in the air and 16 it's bothering them, to keep windows closed, air 17 conditioners recirculate, which is the messages 18 we've been given for a long period of time, that 19 should be done as well. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Thank you, 21 Mr. Chairman. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there a 23 presentation you want to make, Mr. Adams? 24 MR. ADAMS: Yes. 25 MS. CALLAHAN: May I just address one Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 188 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 issue? 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, please. 4 MS. CALLAHAN: That the Councilwoman 5 raised. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Sure. 7 MS. CALLAHAN: There has been federal 8 money made available to address aspects of, you know 9 the disaster through the Federal Emergency 10 Management Agency, and many of us are using that as 11 we go through the process of trying to select 12 samples and monitor workers, and there are larger 13 issues than, you know, the immediate funding to 14 address the disaster, but I at least wanted to make 15 it clear that there is that money available in order 16 to help people. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Yes. 18 MS. CALLAHAN: And that does include 19 residents and businesses that may have been affected 20 and they can go to FEMA to find out what the 21 specific financial supports might be to help them 22 clean up after this disaster. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Is there an 24 estimate on the dollar amount that they expect? An 25 estimate in terms of the dollar amount it would take Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 189 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to put this effort together, continue this effort? 3 MS. CALLAHAN: Oh, the total amount? I 4 would hesitate to guess at that. I just know that 5 there's a certain amount that's available now that's 6 been, you know, has a ceiling of the $80 million 7 range, but that is really to address the short-term 8 issues of addressing -- 9 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Can you tell 10 us how much has been spent as of today? 11 MS. CALLAHAN: I can't. I can only 12 tell you how much EPA has spent, and that is -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Which is? 14 MS. CALLAHAN: Approximately $30 15 million. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay, thank you 17 very much. 18 Mr. Adams. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER BOYLAND: Thank you. 20 MR. ADAMS: Thank you, Chairman 21 Michels, and thank you, members of the City Council. 22 I appreciate the opportunity for the Department of 23 Design and Construction to speak about our role and 24 our involvement in this project from a safety and 25 health perspective. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 190 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 As you know, recently this week we 3 came under a unified command structure where the DDC 4 and the Fire Department were going to both work 5 jointly to manage this incident, and specifically my 6 agency, and myself as a director of Environmental 7 Health and Safety for the agency are now charged 8 with the overall responsibility for site safety, and 9 that includes all the other elements that we've 10 talked about here today, environment and worker 11 health protection, and I appreciate all the 12 assistance that we have gotten from these other 13 agencies, and I have to echo the sentiment that it's 14 been great to receive such a cooperative and 15 collaborative effort on everybody's part. 16 My goal, as I look at this job, is 17 that the people who come to this site every day, 18 when they leave the site they return home in the 19 same condition as when they arrived, and that's 20 really the big mission that I have for this project, 21 and I'm going to be working very hard, as the agency 22 is going to be working very hard to address these. 23 I'm going to try to talk a little bit 24 about general safety, move into a topic that came up 25 earlier, which was the suppression of dust, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 191 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 we're also involved in some of this worker health 3 monitoring, and I'm going to hopefully in a few 4 minutes give you a quick overview. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, you will be 6 known as the lead agency as far as safety is 7 concerned? 8 MR. ADAMS: That's what we were told 9 as of 0700 Tuesday morning. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that has 11 been acknowledged by all the other agencies 12 involved? 13 MR. ADAMS: Yes, it has been. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Without giving 15 up their jurisdiction. 16 MR. ADAMS: That is correct, yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You understand 18 what I'm saying? 19 MR. ADAMS: Okay. 20 I just wanted to, kind of going back 21 to the very early stages of this project, we 22 recognized fairly early on that there was a need for 23 protecting workers, providing for their health and 24 safety. This is a dynamic site, many changes take 25 place. A lot has changed since those very early Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 192 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 days, and it continues to change each and every day 3 that we're out there. 4 As a result, we've had to revise our 5 plans and our approaches. 6 The first thing we did very early on, 7 dated September 14th, was to issue an accident 8 prevention plan. It was very short, very to the 9 point document, that provided for the workers the 10 basic rudimentary safety procedures that should be 11 followed, and we started focusing obviously on the 12 protective equipment, that's still an issue today. 13 We also looked at developing what we call safe zone, 14 and by safe zone what we mean is the area where 15 people need to have respiratory protection, 16 hardhats, gloves, goggles, eye protection, all those 17 things that you would typically have. Maybe the 18 respiratory protection is a little bit more than we 19 need typically for a construction project of this 20 magnitude, but there is no textbook here. We've had 21 to look at and evaluate different strategies. We 22 feel that the strategy that we have now with respect 23 to protective equipment and the areas where we 24 required it are sound and good protocols to follow. 25 We began to initially have safety Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 193 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 meetings for contractors, rescue workers, anybody 3 who would really come to them, we held them at IS 89 4 and to this day we still hold daily safety meetings 5 at IS 89 and we take the information, that's where 6 we relay information to the contractors and other 7 people who -- 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: For the record, 9 I think you ought to identify where IS 89 is 10 located. 11 MR. ADAMS: IS 89 is located at 12 Chambers and West Street, directly across from 13 Stuyvesant High School. 14 Next slide, please. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That is on the 16 west side. 17 MR. ADAMS: The west side, that is 18 correct. 19 One of the first things we did, as 20 early as September the 12th, is we got down there 21 very early and we had our first safety inspections. 22 They were pretty ad hoc. At that point in time we 23 didn't know what we were going to be coming up to 24 when we got there, but the initial walk-arounds to 25 identify the problems that occurred actually the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 194 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 next day. 3 Within a couple of days we had 24/7 4 safety inspectors on site. That continues to this 5 day, in addition to the industrial hygiene 6 monitoring and the environmental monitoring that 7 you've heard described. 8 We also began the development of a 9 more comprehensive site specific safety plan. 10 We recognize that a site of this 11 complexity in the nature of the project was going to 12 require more than a very simple accident prevention 13 plan, and in order to protect the health and 14 well-being of those workers, and when I say workers, 15 I mean all of those who are involved in the World 16 Trade Center project, I do mean that we needed to 17 have a comprehensive plan that address many issues. 18 I heard mention about compliance space early on, and 19 that's one of the very issues that we're wrestling 20 with and have been wrestling with since the very 21 beginning of this project. 22 The next slide, please. 23 Currently today we are in the process 24 of instituting that site-specific safety plan. It 25 went out to many agencies. Everybody had the chance Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 195 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to comment on that plan, and it has now been 3 implemented and is in force, and as a matter of 4 fact, it was in force effective with the transition 5 to the unified command that occurred earlier this 6 week. 7 Again, as I mentioned, the safety 8 inspectors continue their work, and again, we're 9 working collaboratively, especially with OSHA, who 10 has been an absolutely wonderful partner to have, 11 and their expertise has been phenomenal. 12 We have provided many specialists, 13 because of the dynamic nature of this project, 14 specialists in things like marine operation, which 15 we have the barge operations, which we've had some 16 concerns about here this morning, the cranes, which 17 are probably one of the most obvious signs, other 18 than the pile itself of the work going on, the 19 industrial hygiene and other specialists in 20 demolition and other below grade support services. 21 As I mentioned, we have worked in 22 collaboration with OSHA, and we continue to do so 23 and we look forward to a continuing relationship 24 with OSHA, as well as all of the other agencies that 25 have been participants. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 196 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I should also mention that we also 3 have involved the unions, we have a weekly union 4 stewards meeting where we talk about safety issues, 5 that's usually Fridays, around 11:00. We continue 6 the daily safety meetings, and also we have special 7 meetings where we have different technical issues, 8 the issue of Freon has been mentioned. We actually 9 have a group that has been working on the Freon to 10 determine what our strategy has got to be to deal 11 with that particular problem, and right now the 12 Freon of course is below grade and it's very 13 difficult to get to. We're pretty certain that it's 14 fairly well controlled at the moment, but we're 15 continuing to monitor. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's under 17 control because it's not exposed. 18 MR. ADAMS: Not exposed. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But you are 20 anticipating a time comes when it will be exposed. 21 MS. ADAMS: That's why we're setting 22 programs in place now to monitor the condition, look 23 for leaks. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's an 25 intelligent approach. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 197 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there 4 anything comparable to that, other than Freon, that 5 we have a problem with? 6 MR. ADAMS: The only other big thing 7 that was mentioned was the tanks, the underground 8 tanks. We know there are some diesel tanks below 9 grade, we are looking at that. We believe based on 10 information from the people who have actually gone 11 down below that those tanks are secure. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What were they 13 used for, those tanks? 14 MR. ADAMS: Their back-up generator. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: A back-up 16 generator for the electricity in the building? 17 MR. ADAMS: Yes, I believe that's what 18 they were used for. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They were not 20 pumping any gasoline or any diesel fuel in that 21 building? 22 MR. ADAMS: No, they would have been 23 just there on reserve. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. 25 MR. ADAMS: That's my understanding. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 198 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The Port Authority engineers that 3 we've talked to are more knowledgeable in this area. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You should know, 5 I had my office there in 1976 and 1977, and I parked 6 my car in the garage there, so I'm sort of familiar 7 with what was -- 8 MR. ADAMS: Okay, so you know. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes. 10 MR. ADAMS: It's the same thing with 11 the Freon, too. Again, we don't know what the exact 12 conditions were at the exact time of the event, in 13 terms of how much Freon was actually there, so right 14 now it's a matter of trying to identify the 15 situation. We have a plan in place to do that, when 16 we feel it's time to do it, we have worked with the 17 Fire Department very closely on this issue, we're 18 all very concerned about the Freon. 19 Can you go into the next one? 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What about 21 phosgene? 22 MR. ADAMS: The phosgene. You have to 23 understand with the phosgene, the phosgene, it's 24 been reported that it's a by-product of the 25 combustion of the Freon 22, but according to Dupont, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 199 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 who is the major manufacturer of R22 Freon, phosgene 3 really, it's only something they can do under 4 controlled conditions, like in a laboratory is what 5 I understand. 6 We really think that any phosgene 7 that is present is probably coming from the fire 8 from other sources. We don't really believe that -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What other 10 sources? 11 MR. ADAMS: It could be fuel, perhaps. 12 It could be other materials. There are hazardous 13 materials that were restored below grade, some of 14 those, because just different products that they may 15 have had. So, it could be decomposition from those. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, we don't 17 know what phosgene comes from then? 18 MR. ADAMS: We're not 100 percent sure 19 in this particular case where it does, unless, I 20 don't know if anybody else has an opinion on it. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I guess a great 22 fear of phosgene is nerve gas. 23 MR. ADAMS: It's nerve gas, right. 24 What is usually the indicator for the 25 decomposition of the R 22, Freon, is the acid gases. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 200 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 That's why we continue to recommend the acid gas 3 monitors, and, so, we are looking for the acid 4 gases. 5 Did we find any? 6 MS. CLARKE: No. 7 MR. ADAMS: We haven't found any. 8 MS. CLARKE: All have been 9 non-detected. 10 MR. ADAMS: All have been 11 non-detected. We think the acid gas is actually our 12 first indicator of Freon. The phosgene may be just 13 an anomaly from some other product that may have 14 combusted in the plume. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because of the 16 fact there is still much rubble to be removed and 17 much open cavities to be exposed, we have to keep up 18 with all this testing because you don't know what 19 you are going to find under there. 20 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm sure you 22 have gone to the people who are doing business in 23 that area, in those buildings, trying to find out 24 what they had, any hazardous materials. 25 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. We -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 201 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Under the laws 3 of the City of New York, you have to file with the 4 Department of Environmental Protection, and we've 5 had many hearings on that, as you know, and to find 6 out exactly -- but not everybody adheres to those 7 laws and tells us. 8 MR. ADAMS: That's correct. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sometimes we get 10 surprises. 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 12 also let me interject on that point. 13 We have been very much involved in 14 this process. Our HAZMAT Unit has been very involved 15 in the process. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I expect you 17 would be. 18 But we still have to be very careful, 19 because we don't know whether somebody had something 20 stored under there. 21 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. Absolutely, 22 we're looking very carefully. 23 As a matter of fact, one of the 24 things that we worked with the Port Authority in 25 conjunction was to actually overlay the storage Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 202 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 areas on maps, so that the workers, when they get to 3 those areas, know that they're approaching an area 4 where there may have been some storage of materials, 5 so we can take extra precaution. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's the 7 reason for our hazardous materials law. 8 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. It's a perfect 9 example. 10 To talk a little bit about the 11 future, again, some of these things were already 12 actually talked about. 13 We are working on the safety worker 14 training and orientation for new workers who are 15 coming to the site, so they get to understand what 16 the safety risks are. What the hazards are. We are 17 doing some specialized safety training in 18 conjunction with the operating engineers and other 19 trades. We've provided special training in 20 excavation, crane operations, heavy equipment. We're 21 going to be continuing those programs, we also 22 expect to have special training on confined space 23 entry, as well as the Spill Prevention Program, 24 which actually is in the process. We're supposed to 25 have a meeting this afternoon about the Spill Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 203 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Prevention Program so that we can avoid any further 3 hazardous materials. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And these are 5 programs not really on paper. You have personnel and 6 you have sufficient funds to do it? 7 MR. ADAMS: These are people who are 8 working with us -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I'm not 10 talking about one or two or three people. You are 11 talking about people who can really do this job? 12 MR. ADAMS: That's right. In 13 collaboration with the other agencies, okay? It's 14 not just us. When I speak about this and I speak the 15 "we", we're talking about all the agencies who are 16 in collaboration on it. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Could you 18 possibly get me a TOE chart (phonetic) on this, and 19 also the amount of money that's being spent? I would 20 appreciate it, in the future. 21 MR. ADAMS: I will go back. I don't 22 know who is actually tracking all of that 23 information, but I will try to find out for you. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the reason 25 is, I agree this should be done and I want to make Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 204 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 sure it is done. 3 MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the best way 5 to make sure it's done is if I know about it. 6 MR. ADAMS: No problem. We'll look 7 into that and get back to you. 8 Also, we're talking about, best 9 management practices were mentioned, talking about a 10 program of safety auditing for the contractors, 11 especially, to make sure that they are continuing 12 their compliance, as well as to establish different 13 protocols and procedures. They may be a little more 14 stringent than the standards, but are more 15 protective of the workers. Because we're always 16 looking to find better ways to keep everybody safe 17 and healthy -- 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Including the 19 people who live in the area. 20 MR. ADAMS: Yes. Well, actually we are 21 about ready to move into my next slide. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because I've 23 heard the complaints about the fact that they're not 24 covering the trucks properly. 25 MR. ADAMS: Yes, I'd like to address Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 205 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that. 3 And you can move to the next slide 4 now. 5 We have had an ongoing effort of dust 6 suppression. I can't tell you that it's worked 100 7 percent all the time, but we have made a lot of 8 strides in this area. We actually started way back 9 in the early days, to start throwing water at least 10 down. 11 I have to also take the opportunity 12 here, there has been another player who has been 13 very actively involved with us, we talked about the 14 Fire Department and so forth with their role, but I 15 also have to compliment the Department of 16 Sanitation. They have done an outstanding job of 17 looking at the perimeter areas and getting those 18 areas cleaned up and I can tell you that every day I 19 look down the streets and say it's amazing what the 20 Department of Sanitation has done, and I think we 21 have to recognize their efforts as well. They may 22 not be here today talking to us -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They are here 24 today. 25 MR. ADAMS: They are here. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 206 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that's one 3 of the agencies that are under the jurisdiction of 4 this Committee. 5 MR. ADAMS: Good. 6 Well, I think they deserve a great 7 compliment for a tremendous effort. They have really 8 done an amazing job, and they are a part of our dust 9 suppression efforts, because they're really working 10 a lot in the perimeter areas, and they have helped 11 with a lot of the street cleaning. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I've seen the 13 trucks with the water -- 14 MR. ADAMS: I have a picture on the 15 next slide. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, let's see 17 it. 18 MR. ADAMS: But I wanted to compliment 19 them. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let's see them 21 in person. 22 MR. ADAMS: What we've done here is we 23 actually, the contractors are really responsible. 24 The contractors for the most part are the ones that 25 are generating the dust, and a lot of this dust is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 207 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 very fine because of the fires, it's created a 3 fly-ash, if you will, and, so, it's a very difficult 4 dust to control. So, we brought in a contractor who 5 is working specifically on the dust suppression 6 issues, and we're going to continue to assess the 7 dust suppression. 8 It isn't perfect. We're going to work 9 at it as hard as we can. We really want to try to 10 get the best dust suppression, and we don't want 11 off-site emissions. It's been one of the things that 12 comes up every morning in safety meetings, it comes 13 up in many of our operations meetings, that we have 14 got to do as good a job, a better job as we can. We 15 know that it's going to be difficult, but we're 16 going to try to do the best that we can. 17 I'd like to say a couple of things 18 about the tarping, and then I'll talk about some of 19 what we're doing with the dust suppression. 20 The tarping has been a little bit of 21 a problem because as you know, most of this material 22 that is coming out is still very hot. 23 As a matter of fact, we've set a few 24 tarps on fire, actually quite a few tarps on fire, 25 because of how hot this material is. So, we had to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 208 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 go to an alternate procedure, which is actually 3 putting a daily use system to actually try to cool 4 the steel and debris down, and we're still kind of 5 working and fine-tuning this, but it's been an 6 ongoing problem, and we've worked cooperatively with 7 the Department of Environmental Conservation to come 8 up with various methods so that we can get the 9 debris to the location so it can be shipped 10 off-site. 11 But, again, we've had some 12 difficulties with this, because the nature of the 13 material and the condition its in has made it very 14 difficult to handle. 15 We typically don't tarp the flatbed 16 trucks, and that may be, if you see some trucks 17 going down the road that have steel on them, we 18 don't tarp those and we haven't been tarping those. 19 But we do wash them down. 20 If we could go to the next slide, 21 please. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think what 23 they're talking about, while you're putting your 24 next slide on, is tarping down the debris trucks 25 that are carrying the debris. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 209 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. ADAMS: Right. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The trucks with 4 the pieces of steel on them -- 5 MR. ADAMS: Right. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I think it 7 probably is sufficient to wash them down -- 8 MR. ADAMS: Right. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And make sure 10 they are not carrying any dust with them. 11 MR. ADAMS: Correct. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But what we're 13 mostly concerned about is trucks carrying debris 14 that could go into the air and dissipate into the 15 air. 16 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely, and we do have 17 as well. And we do have tarping stations, I will 18 show you that on the next slide. 19 Actually, I misspoke, it's a DOT 20 truck that's out there spraying the water down. But 21 we've had Sanitation out there routinely. 22 This is one of the things that we've 23 done on the dust suppression. I don't know if you 24 can see the way this set-up is here, which is 25 actually like a spreader bar that has a misting Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 210 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 application. 3 Now, we didn't have this in the 4 earlier days, we were basically just using 5 firehoses, so this contractor came up with this, and 6 he literally built these on-site for us, and this 7 allows us to get a little bit more of a finer mist 8 and spread to help knock the dust down. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: This is water 10 spraying? 11 MR. ADAMS: This is just water. This 12 is just water. 13 We really don't want to throw any 14 more chemicals or anything onto this. We think water 15 should do it. And in most sites -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You never can 17 tell, it may interact with something you have there 18 and cause a problem. 19 MR. ADAMS: Well, that could be. Or 20 just the idea of not throwing any more chemicals 21 down, you just don't want to do it. 22 So, this is one of the options. They 23 are actually building more of these, and they're 24 going to get these up. And, of course, the critical 25 thing is getting them up in the air so that they can Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 211 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 spread out and they can mist down. But it's an 3 ongoing process, it's 24/7, we have to keep this 4 going. 5 So, this is one of the things that 6 we're doing right now. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And where are 8 you pumping the water from, the river? 9 MR. ADAMS: It's coming from -- the 10 DEP has opened up many of the hydrants. As you know, 11 during the early days we had very little water 12 supply there. It brought a lot of those hydrants 13 back on line. 14 I believe they are getting some of 15 the water from the river, but I think most of it is 16 coming from those hydrants. 17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 18 We are working in a collaborative effort with DDC. 19 Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you, both. 21 MR. ADAMS: So, again, if we could go 22 to the next slide then? 23 This is one of our truck wash 24 stations. This is the one at West and Chambers -- or 25 just south of Chambers Street. Actually, it is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 212 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 probably closer to Murray, I think. And this is, you 3 can't see the whole station here, but this is what 4 we would typically do with one of the trucks. You 5 can see the guy with the hose there, he is washing 6 the sides down. 7 If the load is very dusty, he will 8 also hit that. And then after he gets beyond this 9 wash station, they have a crew that are supposed to 10 tarp, and, again, some of the folks from the 11 Department of Sanitation are assisting us with this, 12 because besides private contractor vehicles, we also 13 have a number of Sanitation vehicles that are going 14 through here. 15 We're working on this. I can't tell 16 you that it's a perfect system, but we have, the DEC 17 police have been out there regularly. They inspect 18 and observe, and they have been reporting back, and 19 I do know that when they have had problems with 20 certain individuals, they have actually gone out and 21 pulled them over and issued citations and they are 22 very aggressively monitoring the situation and we 23 thank them for their assistance as well. We work 24 very, very closely with the DEC on this issue. 25 We are also looking at new design of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 213 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 these stations. As you know, with the winter coming, 3 spraying water could potentially be a problem, and 4 freezing and so forth, so we're looking at 5 winterizing these stations, as well, so we will be 6 better able to control the run-off, as well as to 7 prevent problems with freezing lines and so forth. 8 So, this is one of the stations that 9 we have in place right now. We have actually three 10 different stations currently in position. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We're talking 12 about possibly a tour, if we could go down and see 13 these stations, we would like to see them. 14 MR. ADAMS: Okay, sure. I'm sure we 15 can do that. That's no problem. 16 Just generally speaking, the DDC has 17 also been involved in worker monitoring, both in 18 collaboration with OSHA, plus on our own. And we 19 have been doing for quite some time a lot of worker 20 air monitoring. 21 I'm not going to belabor all the 22 results, because you heard most of the results from 23 OSHA, just to say that their results are very 24 similar to our results. 25 We primarily are using the data from Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 214 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 our perspective to assess the effectiveness of 3 respiratory protection for the workers, and, again, 4 we've monitored these materials. 5 And if you go to the last slide, the 6 general conclusion, as I mentioned very early on, is 7 that we have really not found a level that would 8 dictate that we need any more stringent respiratory 9 protection. The levels that we have are adequate, 10 and we believe that if we can continue to use this 11 protective equipment with the levels that we're 12 finding, that we won't have a problem for the 13 workforce on the pile. The key thing is, of course, 14 getting people to use it, and our improvement has 15 been dramatic, since the very early days of this 16 program. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's your 18 presentation? 19 MR. ADAMS: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I've just got a 21 few more questions, then Kathryn, Council Member 22 Freed has some questions. 23 Number one, I just want to be 24 straight in that you are the lead agency as far as 25 safety at the site is concerned? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 215 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there a lead 4 agency as far as testing is concerned? Or are they 5 all doing different testing? 6 MS. CALLAHAN: Environmental testing? 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, lead agency 8 for testing among you? 9 MS. CALLAHAN: Well, EPA is the lead 10 agency for environmental testing. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Environmental 12 testing. 13 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, in other 15 words, any tests that are being done by any of the 16 other agencies here, would then send you the results 17 of those tests, and you would make sure you have 18 those tests? 19 MS. CALLAHAN: That is what we're 20 doing, yes. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Now, let me ask 22 you this: To my knowledge, there are testing being 23 done by a lot of private sources. 24 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Private labs, as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 216 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 far as Virginia and other places are concerned. Are 3 you getting the results of those tests? Are you 4 accepting the results of those tests and looking at 5 them? Because some of them may very well show 6 different results than you have, and they should be 7 considered. 8 MS. CALLAHAN: In some cases we have 9 received those kind of data from private sectors. 10 We are trying to look at it, and 11 ultimately, if it's appropriate, make it part of the 12 database. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You want to 14 evaluate? 15 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In other words, 17 you have an open mind as to other testing that's 18 being done, and you're not -- you're doing 19 everything you can to encourage that type of testing 20 and not suppressing any testing that's being done? 21 MS. CALLAHAN: Oh, absolutely. We 22 wouldn't suppress any testing. We have an open mind 23 -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, any results 25 that I come across, if somebody comes to me and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 217 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 says, look, we have a lab, I would send it directly 3 to you and it will be considered? 4 I'm not saying you have to accept, 5 you have to evaluate it. 6 MS. CALLAHAN: Exactly. Exactly. We 7 would evaluate it. Obviously, our first priority in 8 the initial weeks of this has been to look at our 9 own data and the other agency datas, and evaluate 10 the effects upon the populations that might be 11 impacted. But we are prepared to look at the testing 12 results that other come up with and try to compare 13 those, and especially if they seem anomalous to what 14 we've gotten -- 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if it's 16 something you need, you are going to follow through? 17 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because we're 19 all in this together, trying to protect the public. 20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 21 Chairman, the collaborative effort is not restricted 22 obviously to the agencies, you are very much a part 23 of that, sir. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of course, I 25 would expect that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 218 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Who is the lead agency as far as 3 making sure the web sites are giving all the 4 information and is as complete as possible? 5 MS. CALLAHAN: That is also EPA's 6 responsibility. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That is EPA's 8 responsibility? 9 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You collect all 11 the information, and you are going to see to it, it 12 gets on the -- how many web sites are there involved 13 here? 14 MS. CALLAHAN: Well, ultimately we 15 will put it all on one database. But other agencies 16 are getting some of their own data up on their web 17 sites as well. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But you are 19 uniformed and you're coordinating it? 20 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. We're 21 going to have a centralized database, that 22 ultimately will make all of the agency's data 23 available to the public. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay. This is 25 not -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 219 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. CLARKE: If I could mention, our 3 agency web sites are linked. If you go into our web 4 base, our web site, and you talk about asbestos or 5 other sampling, we right on there have a link over 6 to EPA's web site. For ours you can look at worker 7 data, you know, for theirs you can look at 8 environmental data. 9 And I have to say also, we are also 10 following up, any time you hear about any kind of 11 new substance, concern, or a spike someone else is 12 getting, we modify our sampling strategy, we modify 13 it on a daily basis. 14 Sometimes even, you know, because we 15 have people going out on three shifts, we will do 16 something different on the 11 to 7 shift if we hear 17 about an issue that props up during the day. 18 We're constantly changing our risk 19 assessment strategy. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm treating you 21 as a team, and I imagine there are other members of 22 the team who are not sitting at this table. But who 23 would be in charge of public information, getting it 24 out there, if we come upon something that, you know, 25 not everybody has a web site, not everybody has a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 220 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 computer, making sure the public is aware of public 3 service announcements, or newspapers or something 4 else, who is handling that, as far as the team is 5 concerned? Public information analysis? 6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Again, 7 the web site that EPA has really has the majority of 8 the data. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Making sure in a 10 public announcement, in an emergency situation 11 you've got to go on the radio or television. 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Right. 13 Obviously the party that we have not mentioned here 14 and is not at the table is OEM. OEM has really taken 15 the lead and brought everything together. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So they would do 17 that. 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 19 And OEM, obviously, talk about kudos, 20 they've done a magnificent job of putting this all 21 together, and so we would be remiss in not 22 mentioning them. But, yes, everything will emanate. 23 Some of the meetings that have been suggested 24 actually occur at OEM. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And they are an Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 221 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 important part of this? 3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 4 they are. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So nobody is 6 here from the Office of Emergency Management? 7 Now, my final question to you, this 8 is not a SuperFund site, because SuperFund site has 9 definitions with respect to what has to be in a 10 SuperFund site and how it occurs. This is a result 11 of terrorism and we know that. 12 MS. CALLAHAN: That's right. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But if you just 14 take out that element what caused it, does this -- 15 if it hadn't been caused by a terrorist act, would 16 this qualify as a SuperFund site, in considering the 17 dangerous conditions that exist there? 18 MS. CALLAHAN: I think very different 19 in many respects than SuperFund sites would be, I 20 mean I guess my instinct would be to compare it more 21 to a tremendous fire site, which could have elements 22 of, you know, toxics and potential exposure 23 problems, just like a SuperFund site could. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's my point. 25 MS. CALLAHAN: But it's not a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 222 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 SuperFund site. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I know it's not 4 a SuperFund, but it could be in many ways considered 5 comparable, as you just said, to a SuperFund site, 6 considering the dangers that are involved here and 7 the fact that there is toxins, toxic substances in 8 the area. 9 MS. CALLAHAN: There are certainly 10 toxic substances in the area -- 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Certainly it's 12 not a brownfield site. 13 MS. CALLAHAN: No, it's not a 14 brownfield site, no. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So this would be 16 that. And that being the case, why aren't we 17 treating it with the same type of protocol -- or are 18 we treating it with the same type of protocols, as 19 if it had been a SuperFund site? 20 MR. ADAMS: If I could address that? 21 I've actually managed SuperFund sites myself in a 22 previous life -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Good. That's 24 wonderful. 25 MR. ADAMS: And I can tell you that we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 223 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are actually adopting some SuperFund protocols, the 3 protective equipment, the designation of a -- we 4 call it the "safe zone," but in SuperFund 5 terminology we call it an "exclusion zone". 6 We are undertaking more extraordinary 7 efforts than if this had been let's say a building 8 that collapsed on its own, where we probably would 9 not have done that. 10 So, we've taken more extraordinary 11 measures. We have taken measures more comparable. 12 The washdown requirements, the truck wash, the 13 wetting down of the material, all of these are 14 probably above and beyond what we would typically 15 have done had these buildings let's say been unsafe 16 buildings that collapsed on their own and we were 17 going in for clean-up. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm getting back 19 to the analogy of the SuperFund site. There are 20 certain protocols on how to clean up a SuperFund 21 site. You are aware of that, because you say you 22 managed one? 23 MR. ADAMS: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are the 25 protocols that we're following here, and we've Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 224 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 developed protocols, I would imagine since it 3 happened; isn't that correct? 4 MR. ADAMS: Yes. They are similar to 5 but we have -- 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are we pretty 7 much following those protocols? And if we're not, 8 which ones aren't we following and why not? 9 MR. ADAMS: I couldn't say if we go 10 through specific protocols, but I'm going to talk 11 predominantly from how we're doing in terms of 12 worker protection. 13 We're following most of the protocols 14 that we would typically follow for worker 15 protection, as if it was a SuperFund site, even 16 though we recognize that it's not. There are certain 17 things, for example, we don't have people climbing 18 through the site in white suits, as you know. That's 19 not a requirement, we don't see any reason for that. 20 But we are following other protocols 21 that would be. We are requiring workers to go 22 through a personal wash-down, clean their boots, 23 clean their hands, dispose of protective equipment, 24 like gloves or booties, or we do have some people 25 who do go in in white suits and dispose of those Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 225 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 properly, clean their respirators. These are all 3 typical SuperFund activities that we find. 4 If we did find an area where we had a 5 hazardous material, that we found a drum or a 6 cylinder or something like that, we would treat it 7 as a hazardous material, and we would take 8 extraordinary precautions, as we would at a 9 SuperFund site. 10 But in terms of a poor treatment of 11 this site in that capacity, no, we're not really 12 doing it that way. 13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Mr. 14 Chairman, I would suggest, too, that we'd be happy 15 to discuss this with you off line, to discuss your 16 interpretation of the SuperFund site. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm just -- 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: And 19 also to give you some more information with regard 20 to the protocols that are in existence. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The point is, we 22 have brownfields and we have SuperFund sites, and 23 now we have something that's never happened -- 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes, 25 and hopefully it never will again. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 226 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Hopefully it 3 never will happen again. 4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that being 6 the case, we have to devise protocols for this 7 particular site, and learn from what we've done. 8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: And we 9 would be happy -- 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The most 11 terrible sites that we know of are SuperFund sites. 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: We 13 would be happy to sit with you as a partner and look 14 at that. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So -- 16 MR. ADAMS: Let me just add very 17 quickly that I agree with what Bob is saying. We 18 have a safety plan, a health and safety plan, and 19 that's another thing that we're doing. If you're 20 looking for the protocols in terms of at least the 21 safety of the site -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right. 23 MR. ADAMS: -- That's where it 24 resides, and, again, I agree, I think maybe we could 25 -- this is a good discussion but I think we could Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 227 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 continue this -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of course the 4 other area of the SuperFund designation is very 5 important, moneywise -- 6 MR. ADAMS: Well-- 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In the sense 8 that the SuperFund site is federal monies. 9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Again, 10 those are issues that we've talked about before with 11 regard to the monies available. We will be happy to 12 discuss with you -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are we getting 14 the monies to do what has to be don here? 15 I mean, everybody talks about $30 16 billion and money, we hear from Washington, but the 17 devil is in the details. Is the money coming in to 18 do what has to be done, or are we going to be caught 19 -- 20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: We are 21 again, as I suggested before, it's a 22 work-in-progress. We are working, we've gotten 23 nothing but cooperation at every turn and we 24 anticipate having that. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Have you gotten Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 228 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 money? 3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: The 4 commitments have been made to us. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Have we gotten 6 the money yet? 7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: We 8 have not had to ask for anything. And we will 9 certainly be glad, as I said, it is a 10 work-in-progress, we would be glad to share the 11 information with you. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because -- 13 MS. CALLAHAN: And we are getting 14 money. 15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Any 16 dollars that were appropriated early on that have 17 been committed to us, we have received, and it is a 18 work-in-progress. We don't know what the final tally 19 will be, but we will be glad to share that with you. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But do we have a 21 commitment to completely fund the clean-up from 22 federal money? As the President himself said, this 23 is an act of war. 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Yes. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the City of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 229 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 New York shouldn't have to bear the financial 3 responsibility of having to clean this up without 4 federal funds. 5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Again, 6 this is something, it's a work-in-progress, and 7 we'll be glad to share that with you. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I would 9 appreciate it. 10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: Thank 11 you. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But the devil is 13 in the details and the dollars are what count here. 14 I know all sorts of commitments have been made, but 15 so far we haven't seen any of the money, and that 16 should be as a matter of record. 17 Council Member Freed. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We are joined by 20 Council Member Marshall, the, I hope to be, future 21 Borough President of the Borough of Queens. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: I actually 23 wanted to go back a little bit, I had some previous 24 questions. 25 Talking about tracking some of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 230 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 data, we keep hearing, and because I am involved 3 downtown, that some of the firemen are now showing 4 like either emphysema or looks like they are 5 developing emphysema because of the prolonged 6 exposure to this. 7 I mean, someone mentioned before, I 8 think OSHA, about some of this is like being exposed 9 to second-hand smoke, but is this accurate? I mean, 10 in addition to like the "fireman's cough" everyone 11 is talking about, or the "WTC cough," is it looking 12 like any of these are moving towards emphysema? 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 14 don't think we can speak to that. 15 I don't think the Fire Department is 16 here at this time, but we would either have to get 17 someone to get back to you on these questions, or 18 just basically follow-up with you on it. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 20 As far as the incidence of the cough 21 that's been reported, or the bronchitis, is that 22 being tracked? 23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I'm 24 sorry, can you repeat that? 25 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: The bronchitis Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 231 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 or asthma? The impact, you know, from the cough, I 3 mean is the incidence of the cough being tracked? 4 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 5 Among firefighters or among -- 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, I've only 7 heard about it being tracked among the firefighters. 8 I would hope it's also being tracked in some of the 9 other, you know, contractors who are down there, 10 between the steel workers and, you know, the various 11 contractors as well. 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: 13 Council Member Freed, I think a short while ago I 14 think we agreed that we would try to look a little 15 deeper to have an assessment. 16 We do have information as to what the 17 Health Department has reported on, but we would 18 certainly be willing to look deeper at that, as we 19 committed to Chairman Michels. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Is the CDC 21 doing monitoring? 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: The 23 CDC has been involved in our process, as we had Dr. 24 Johnson very much a part of the process. Again, this 25 is a collaborative effort between many agencies, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 232 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 we're very proud to be part of it and very proud to 3 share that with you today. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Do you know 5 what kind of monitoring? I mean, are they doing 6 blood work? Are they checking different organs, as 7 well as just pulmonary? Or you can't answer that at 8 this point? 9 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I'm 10 sorry, just to follow up on the question before, the 11 State Health Department is working with, I believe 12 Mount Sinai, to do some follow up of workers in 13 terms of respiratory effects. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 15 And I know before you mentioned that 16 there were some academic studies going on. Because 17 obviously a lot of this, I mean, it's nothing we've 18 ever experienced before, and a lot of these things 19 are going to be new and there's, you know, my 20 ongoing concern about the synergy between the 21 different elements. I mean, we're testing them one 22 by one, but we don't really seem to have a good 23 knowledge of what happens when they interact, and 24 what the impact on, you know, the human body is 25 going to be. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 233 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 But I'm wondering with these studies, 3 if there is a prevention or an intervention 4 component? 5 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 6 think the prevention and intervention component now 7 is, one, try to get the fires out, do as much dust 8 suppression as we can. 9 I haven't seen any specifically that 10 address intervention components, but that's not to 11 say there is not. I haven't seen them roll across my 12 desk. So, I think there is a lot of things that 13 people are proposing now, and we'll need to take a 14 look at it as time goes on. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 16 And I'm also, of course, pleased to 17 know, or would hope, that I know that at Stuyvesant, 18 as I said there is an epidemiologist that's been on 19 premise, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense 20 to also have CDC monitor and start doing some 21 baseline monitoring and tracking, not only 22 consistently as the firefighters and other people 23 who have been on, you know, on the site, but also of 24 the surrounding residents and some of the children. 25 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 234 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 There actually is a needs assessment in process now 3 where we're trying to look at some of the issues 4 that people are having who are living in the area, 5 that's starting up. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay, because I 7 would certainly recommend it, and, you know -- 8 clearly, because you have a population there, as I 9 said before, you have pregnant women, you have small 10 children, you have a lot of elderly, and then given 11 the fact that New York City has a high asthma rate, 12 respiratory problems, and we've always had 13 respiratory problems downtown because mostly from 14 the pollution, that it is a population that's likely 15 to be highly impacted, and I would hope that we 16 would do some kind of monitoring, and even from a 17 scientific point of view it makes sense just to see 18 what the actual reaction to everything that we're 19 being subjected to is. 20 I know that EPA says that their air 21 monitoring data is now, or most of the time you're 22 up in the internet and we can get it, is that true 23 for DEC? Because I got passed a note that said that 24 there was a FOIL request out for your air monitoring 25 data that hasn't been responded to? Are you aware of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 235 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that, or is that in the process? 3 MS. CLARKE: My understanding is that 4 because EPA had all of the data on the web site, and 5 we don't, we only have pieces of it on ours, that we 6 referred the people who made the FOIL request to 7 EPA. That's my understanding, and that's a procedure 8 that I think is ultimately more efficient, will get 9 people the information in a more comprehensive and 10 more expedited fashion. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, the 12 question there was, I guess, if you -- you know, 13 would that be your testimony if you were in a court 14 of law? 15 MS. CLARKE: I guess I don't 16 understand the question. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: That was the 18 question. 19 Okay, I think, I guess -- 20 MS. CLARKE: The answer is, yes, if 21 you wanted to put me under oath I would give the 22 same answer. 23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: I 24 think any question that we've answered we've 25 answered like in a court of law, because we tell the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 236 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 truth so we don't forget what we said. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. I gather 4 there's been some problem getting some of the 5 information, that was all. Maybe it would just be 6 easier just to release it, but -- 7 MS. CLARKE: EPA has it and it is 8 publicly available, and we don't have it on our web 9 site, only parts of it are on the web site. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Okay. 11 As far as monitoring, has monitoring 12 actually been going on constantly by barge? 13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: There 14 have been several monitors by Stuyvesant High School 15 and by the pier, yes. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The answer is 17 yes. 18 Okay, can we -- Council Member 19 Marshall, the last questioner. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Oh, am I 21 finished? 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Come on, we have 23 to let them go. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, let me 25 ask a couple of questions then, just to follow up Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 237 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 with the barge and then I will be out of here. 3 Do you know what the contracts, the 4 contracts that we entered into for like the trucking 5 for the barge, for the rubble removal, do you know 6 how long those contracts are for? 7 MR. ADAMS: I don't have that 8 information. If that's important, I can get it for 9 you. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: The reason I'm 11 asking, you mentioned before about the tarping, and 12 I know I said this before, but they're not being 13 tarped. And if you stand out there and watch what's 14 going on, you'll see that as they drop the rubble -- 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We've already 16 made that point ad nauseam. We've made that point 17 ad nauseam. Go to the next question. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER FREED: Well, I would 19 just like to ask about the possibility of 20 containerization. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there any 22 possibility anybody is considering containerization? 23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER AVALTRONI: As we 24 suggested before, my colleague at DDC suggested, 25 improvements will be constantly made, we will look Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 238 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 at all alternatives. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Next question. 4 Okay? 5 MS. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry 6 to interrupt, but to beg your pardon, I need to 7 leave now. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just one more 9 question, and then you're finished. 10 MS. CALLAHAN: Okay. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Council Member 12 Marshall. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Yes. I'm 14 sorry that I'm late, I had two major emergencies. 15 But of course I'm concerned about the air quality, 16 and I feel assured that you're doing everything that 17 you humanly possibly can, but I read in the paper, 18 you know, that some of the firemen and the policemen 19 on ground zero are suffering from different kinds of 20 ailments that they didn't have before, and, of 21 course, the students at Stuyvesant High School, but 22 more personally, normally I just go from the parking 23 lot and come into City Hall, but last Friday I had 24 the occasion, I had to walk about maybe five, six 25 blocks, and the air was particularly pungent that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 239 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 day, and I began to cough and feel badly, and of 3 course, when I say feel badly, my eyes watered, you 4 know, when I was coughing. What can we do to protect 5 the public, even from just the irritation? 6 I mean, is it possible that we can? 7 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 8 think the issue really is -- I'm sorry you weren't 9 here before to hear this -- but the issue of the 10 fires burning is causing most of the irritation 11 that's going on now. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Yes. 13 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: To 14 people who are more comfortable, clearly dust masks 15 can be worn. And, you know, to some extent, 16 unfortunately, until the fires are extinguished, 17 we're going to be having this in the air. You know, 18 none of us want it, and we want it to go away and I 19 think the Fire Department is doing what they can to 20 put out the fires, but it is a condition that is 21 uncomfortable, and we expect it to be uncomfortable, 22 and we wouldn't say unsafe for as long as the fires 23 are ongoing. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Would you 25 say that people who have preconditions should take Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 240 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 special care or maybe removed from the area? 3 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I 4 think we've said that all along, if people do have 5 respiratory conditions -- 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Helen, these 7 questions have been asked and answered. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Okay, are 9 redundant. Okay, I know that happens when you come 10 late. I'm sorry. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 12 much for being here. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Okay. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: First of all, I 15 want to thank everybody, but let me, we haven't 16 really had any testimony with respect to the charts 17 behind you. Those charts do contain some of the 18 locations of the monitors and the monitoring? 19 MR. ADAMS: That is correct, Mr. 20 Chairman. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if you left 22 then remaining we'd like to see them. 23 MR. ADAMS: We'd be happy to. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Also, are these 25 monitors on the ground level or higher up in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 241 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 air? Can you tell from these maps as to where the 3 location, as far as the -- 4 MR. ADAMS: It varies, and we could 5 give you that information. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Could you fill 7 me in on that -- 8 MR. ADAMS: We'd be happy to, as 9 always. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let me tell you 11 how much I appreciate all of you being here an the 12 spirit in which you are working, and we're really 13 appreciative of it. If we have other questions, we 14 will submit to you in writing. But thank you very 15 much for the work that you're doing and continue to 16 do the good work you're doing. And please let us 17 know how helpful we can be. But, please, for the 18 sake of the people of this City, who have suffered 19 so grievously, and their families, let us do the 20 best job we all can, and we wish to cooperate in 21 that vein. 22 So, thank you very much. I think you 23 added immeasurably to the knowledge people have and 24 that need to know in this City, and I hope some 25 confidence in the work that's being done here. Thank Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 242 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 you. 3 I want to thank all of the agencies 4 that were here today, and all of the staff that were 5 here for the work they've done. 6 Next we will have Mr. Joel Kupferman, 7 the Executive Director of the New York Environmental 8 Law and Justice Project. 9 Okay, Mr. Kupferman, whenever you are 10 ready. 11 MR. KUPFERMAN: One more second. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Oh, one more 13 second. You have one more second. 14 Okay, please be quiet. 15 Mr. Kupferman, welcome. 16 Identify yourself for the record. We 17 need to do that because it is done electronically, 18 there is no court reporter here. 19 MR. KUPFERMAN: Okay. Good afternoon, 20 Mr. Chairman. Joel R. Kupferman. I am the Executive 21 Director and the Chief Attorney for the New York 22 Environmental Law and Justice Project, and today who 23 works with us, we have Monona Rossol, R-o-s-s-o-l, 24 from Arts Crafts and Theater Safety. She is an 25 industrial hygienist, and she's been working Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 243 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 extensively with the Law Project. And also, we have 3 Nicole Pollier, from the Center for Constitutional 4 Rights, and working with us as co-counsel. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you are all 6 very welcome, and we appreciate your being here 7 today. 8 MR. KUPFERMAN: I just want to point 9 out that the New York Environmental Law Project has 10 been around for ten years and has been no stranger 11 to problems that New York City faces in terms of 12 environmental, environmental health. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And one of our 14 specialties is procuring information, and I think 15 that's the theme today. Today's hearing should be 16 right information and the timeliness of that 17 information. And why the information is not being 18 given. One of the most important questions that 19 should be raised. 20 What we did is, part of our specialty 21 and what we had to do here is prod agencies over and 22 over again. And what's important to point out is 23 that we FOIL'd and FOIA (phonetic), FOIL'd is the 24 New York State New York City Law, and FOIA 25 (phonetic) is the federal law, information regarding Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 244 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 all monitoring reports and information of what 3 happens in downtown, and what happened in the World 4 Trade disaster. 5 It took us awhile, but fortunately we 6 got EPA documents that which we will go over today. 7 But what's really important to point out to everyone 8 here, is that New York City has yet to give us their 9 air monitoring and any other reports that we 10 requested, as they're required to by law, okay? And 11 New York State did not give us the information that 12 we FOIL'd and their response was not that the EPA 13 has it, but they told us, and we will provide the 14 documents in their answers, that due to an ongoing 15 criminal investigation, this material is not 16 available. And they actually told us that EPA told 17 them not to give it to us, so we're going to be 18 seeking litigation on that. 19 I think it's really important the 20 City Council should be given the right information 21 and not just the verbiage that you heard earlier 22 this morning, but the monitoring data that they 23 claimed that all the results were based upon. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: May I say this 25 at the outset? Any questions you have, any Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 245 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 information you want, if you would give it to us, we 3 would request it on behalf of the Council and supply 4 you with that information. 5 MR. KUPFERMAN: Thank you very much. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because my 7 understanding from them, and you were here when they 8 were testifying, was that they will supply us with 9 all necessary documents. The inclination on their 10 part was to give me everything we need, and not only 11 to give it to us, to put it on their web sites. And 12 I also requested that it be done in lay terms so 13 that we could understand it. 14 MS. ROSSOL: (Not identified for the 15 record.) We want it in both terms, though. We'd like 16 to see the actual report. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I understand. 18 You have the expertise. 19 MS. ROSSOL: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that is 21 important. That's why I also asked them if they 22 would receive and consider testing information from 23 other labs other than their own labs. 24 MR. KUPFERMAN: We just want to point 25 out, our last part of our name is "Environmental Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 246 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Justice". Environmental justice basically entails 3 that people who don't have that much power get the 4 short end of the stick when it comes to amenities 5 and the large end of the stick when it comes to 6 pollutants, and that's what's been happening 7 downtown New York. 8 Our office is not more than three, 9 four blocks from here, and not more than three, four 10 blocks away from the World Trade Center. After I 11 talked to hundreds and hundreds of workers that work 12 down here and residents that we began to learn that 13 there was a serious problem. And one of the things 14 that we did is we contacted Monona Rossol, who was 15 the leading industrial hygienist, who gave us a lot 16 of the science background, which was not explained 17 to us by EPA, the City and the State, and I'm going 18 to let her speak first, because she has some time 19 constraints. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just identify 21 yourself when you speak. 22 MS. ROSSOL: I'm Monona Rossol. I'm 23 the president of Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety, a 24 non-profit that provides industrial hygiene and 25 safety services of the arts and theater community Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 247 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 here. But you should know I have another bias, I'm 3 also the Safety Director for the International 4 Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, United 5 Scenic Artists, Local 829. So, I deal with a lot of 6 unusual materials, and that's why this project 7 interested me so much. 8 There's a great deal of issues here 9 and a lot of them came up today, but there are two 10 issues that are striking, absolutely striking in the 11 omissions and the problem. 12 The first one is a worker issue, and 13 that is we looked at asbestos, we looked at silica, 14 we looked at tests for lead, we took -- but the 15 problems of the workers are the symptoms that 16 they're having, they're having costs, they're having 17 respiratory and eye irritations. Asbestos and lead 18 don't have symptoms, so we're looking for something 19 that causes the symptoms, and everybody is saying, 20 well, asbestos was in the building and then they 21 stopped putting it in, but they didn't stop 22 insulating the buildings and the beams. Clearly what 23 they did is they insulated with fiberglass, and we 24 see fiberglass in the samples that we've taken 25 anywhere from ten to 90 percent. So, if you're Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 248 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 dealing with these little needle-like particles, 3 which also on their surface have a urea-Formaldehyde 4 resins, and some people actually are allergic to 5 them, that's where you're seeing a lot of the 6 respiratory problems and some of the reactive airway 7 diseases and other things. 8 These particles aren't even being 9 monitored. Now, OSHA has a proposed standard of one 10 fiber per cubic centimeter. The reason it's proposed 11 is industry has been fighting them and not allowing 12 them to institute it. But they know that that's what 13 it should be, they've already proposed it. 14 There is another set of standards 15 that are always used in industry. They are called 16 the "threshold limit values" rather than the 17 "permissible exposure limits." These also are one 18 fiber per cubic centimeter. So they should have been 19 monitoring workers for this material, as well. And 20 with the dust containing such high levels, I am 21 certain they would have found levels exceeding this. 22 And the EPA was also looking at 23 silica, and other samples with PCM. Those reports 24 have to include fiberglass, because any laboratory 25 technician looking at those tests can see the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 249 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 fiberglass, and, yet, we're not seeing that 3 reported. 4 So, this is the problem that should 5 have been addressed for the workers, and what they 6 should be protecting them against and informing them 7 about in terms of hazards. 8 The second major issue I have -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Let me address 10 that, if I could, because I did ask quite a few 11 questions with respect to -- 12 MS. ROSSOL: Yes, I know. I was really 13 pleased to see that. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And they did say 15 they were testing for it, and they don't list it as 16 one of those being monitored in their report, but I 17 think it seemed to say it falls under the category 18 as your particulate matter. 19 MS. ROSSOL: No. Not when you look at 20 the lab tests that we have, they always break it 21 out. It's there. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: There is two 23 categories here: Particulate matter less than 10 24 microns and particulate matter less than 0.5 25 microns. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 250 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. ROSSOL: These are fibers. As I 3 say, when you look at the laboratory data from 4 ordinary asbestos tests or silica tests, you're 5 going to see the fiberglass listed. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What category 7 would they have tested it for? 8 MS. ROSSOL: It should be listed as -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Separately. 10 MS. ROSSOL:-- Fiberglass. They should 11 be listed that way, and they can break them out. 12 I'm quite sure from the OSHA data 13 that they will be able to when they go back to their 14 lab reports. That's why we want a FOIA, the actual 15 laboratory tests. We don't want the spin on their 16 dailies. We want to actually see what they're doing. 17 MR. KUPFERMAN: I just want to point 18 out, the City Health Department said they weren't 19 testing for asbestos. 20 We sent our samples that we got to a 21 place called ATC Associates, the same lab the City 22 used before in other cases, and while we were there 23 I personally saw stacks of documents that said 24 "asbestos testing for New York City Department of 25 Health." Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 251 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 And in those reports, ATC, without 3 even soliciting them, gives us asbestos results and 4 fiberglass. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: According to 6 their chart, asbestos is being tested by DEP and 7 EPA. 8 MR. KUPFERMAN: Right. But they use 9 independent labs that they go out to test. But the 10 City Department of Health has used ATC labs. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They don't list 12 the Department of Health as testing for asbestos. 13 The Department of Environmental Protection and the 14 Federal EPA is testing for it. 15 MR. KUPFERMAN: That's my point. The 16 point is that I know that the City Department of 17 Health, I have information -- 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're saying 19 they do test for it -- 20 MR. KUPFERMAN: I hereby request that 21 you request from the City Department of Health all 22 the testing that ATC Associates has done in the 23 City. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I understand 25 your point. Sorry for interrupting you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 252 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. ROSSOL: My second point is having 3 to do with Kathryn Freed's concern about people 4 living in this area, and that is that the EPA's spin 5 on the dust makes people feel that they don't need 6 any protection when cleaning it up. 7 We have seen tests coming back from 8 people's apartments and dust that they collected 9 that ranges anywhere from a trace to two or three, 10 four percent asbestos. The minute it looks like 11 that, those homeowners should not be cleaning that 12 apartment up. They shouldn't get near it. That 13 should be an asbestos abatement company. 14 So, instead of having New York State 15 on their web site telling people, oh, clean it up 16 with wet stuff, you might want to buy a HEPA vacuum, 17 they should say, take some of the dust over to ATC 18 lab or any other lab, $25 and you know whether it's 19 got asbestos at some level that is beyond your 20 dealing, so that you can at least start from 21 knowledge. But to assume that this stuff is not 22 asbestos, and our experience is that some are, some 23 aren't - find out first. Twenty-five bucks and you 24 can know. 25 Then the second thing is -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 253 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: As far as I'm 3 concerned, they shouldn't have to pay that. They 4 should take it to EPA, DEP and they should test it 5 for them. 6 MS. ROSSOL: Ideally that would be the 7 case. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They should be 9 calling them in to test on the premises. 10 MS. ROSSOL: When I get a homeowner 11 talking to me and I know that the landlord isn't 12 going to cooperate, I would rather see them pay the 13 $25 and have a lab report put in their hands to put 14 under their landlord's nose, that's about thew way 15 -- I'm thinking first about their -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Or don't you 17 think it would be more important if the lab actually 18 came to the premises to test it there. Because they 19 can say where did you get it from? You could have 20 gotten it from anywhere, it didn't have to come from 21 my house. You've got to show it actually came from 22 the premises. 23 MS. ROSSOL: Yes, but the chain of 24 custody at least between the home-owner and the lab 25 is established. Because what we tell them to do is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 254 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 if you've got a flat surface, you know, just push 3 some together, because we want to know bulkwise 4 what's in there. Because you don't know what's going 5 to be in the air because you don't know what 6 cleaning method they're going to use. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's probably 8 wise to do it that way. And then when they find it 9 is asbestos, then have somebody come in and test. 10 MS. ROSSOL: Then somebody should be 11 coming in to take care of that. 12 And the same with high levels of 13 fiberglass, do you really want this in your carpet? 14 You can't clean that out of a wall-to-wall carpet or 15 certain types of fixtures, you've got to ask about 16 what's in that apartment and how they're best going 17 to do the clean-up, if it's beyond them. And to tell 18 somebody to go and get a respirator, I was amazed at 19 what OSHA put up on there. They put up on there that 20 they were providing respirators and doing fit 21 checking. 22 The respirator regulations are 23 exceedingly clear. A fit check means to put it on 24 and see that it's tight and so on. A fit test is you 25 put somebody under a canopy, you test to see if when Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 255 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 they move around they get breakthrough. Under their 3 own regulations they're not supposed to be fit 4 checking, they're supposed to be fit testing, and 5 they're not even supposed to do that until they have 6 medically certified that worker as capable of 7 wearing a respirator without exacerbating a physical 8 condition. 9 So, there's a lot of rules about 10 respirators. To tell householders to go out and buy 11 a mask and put it on and go and clean their 12 apartments is not responsible. They don't know if it 13 fits, they don't know if that person has asthma or a 14 heart condition that would be exacerbated by 15 breathing stress, they don't know anything. They 16 need to personally answer the questions of these 17 householders about the safest and best way to clean 18 up their particular apartment and their particular 19 dust. And that's what's not happening. It's 20 unconscionable. 21 Those are the two major issues I have 22 with all of the many others that are here. There is 23 not protection of the workers because they are not 24 monitoring for the thing that is most likely to be 25 causing the problem, and they're not protecting Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 256 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 home-owners by providing the kind of information 3 that responsibly will help them clean up, or ask 4 their landlords to clean up their homes. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 6 MS. POLLIER: Thank you, Monona. That 7 was fantastic. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. You 9 were right to the point. 10 MS. POLLIER: Absolutely right on 11 point. 12 Good afternoon. My name is Nicole 13 Pollier. I am a legal intern at the Center for 14 Constitutional Rights. I'm working with Barbara 15 Olshansky. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please give 17 Barbara our best. 18 MS. POLLIER: She sends her warmest 19 regards. 20 The Center appears before the 21 Committee today to express this serious concern over 22 the health and well-being of the workers and law 23 enforcement officers involved in the clean-up and 24 criminal investigation processes. The owners of 25 businesses in the downtown area, and those people Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 257 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that live in Battery Park City, Chinatown, Little 3 Italy, Tribecca, and other neighborhoods below Canal 4 Street. 5 According to the report issued by the 6 National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences 7 on October 22nd, 2001, the operations at the World 8 Trade Center disaster site continued to be conducted 9 on a 24-hour basis, or should I say 24/7, as we 10 heard earlier today. 11 Rotating through this continual 12 operation on a daily basis are more than 5,000 City 13 and private sector workers, including employees of 14 the New York City Police Department, the Fire 15 Department, Sanitation Department, the construction 16 industry, and FEMA, Urban Search and Rescue Teams. 17 These numbers do not include employee 18 from other companies, such as Con Edison, Verizon 19 and others, nor do they include federal personnel 20 from the Environmental Protection Agency, the 21 Occupational and Health Administration or other 22 federal agencies dispatched to the site. 23 Estimates of the total number of 24 individuals working at the site on a daily basis 25 does range from 6,000 to 8,000. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 258 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Responsibility for developing an 3 environmental safety and health plan for the World 4 Trade Center disaster site was subcontracted to a 5 private company Bechtel. 6 Bechtel was awarded a 90-day contract 7 to develop a comprehensive safety and health plan. 8 As part of this contract, Bechtel 9 circulated two draft World Trade Center emergency 10 projects in environmental safety and health plans, 11 however, neither of these drafts contained plans for 12 logistics, demolition, asbestos removal, spill 13 prevention, storm water pollution prevention. No 14 final ES&H plan was ever issued by Bechtel. 15 We learned yesterday that Bechtel has 16 bowed out of its role, and that a new company will 17 shortly be replacing it. In the meantime, there is 18 still no environmental safety and health plan in 19 effect at the World Trade Center disaster site. 20 Despite the known presence of 21 numerous toxic chemicals, which we've heard about 22 today, all agencies involved with the search rescue 23 and recovery effort have acknowledged that virtually 24 none of the people working at the World Trade Center 25 disaster site are or have been wearing adequate Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 259 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 personal protective equipment. 3 While respirators, cartridges, 4 hardhats, Ty-vek overalls and other equipment are 5 available at the site, no organized training has 6 been undertaken. 7 The NIEHS study included some 8 observations that are in our text which I won't 9 quote from here. 10 In addition, workers leaving the site 11 are not decontaminated, nor do they use the washing 12 stations that have been set up at the perimeter of 13 the site by volunteer organizations. 14 Workers continue to work under these 15 conditions on 12-hour shifts, despite exhaustion. 16 According to the NIEHS study, the 17 intensity of the efforts and long work hours has 18 resulted in a very high rate of injury and illness 19 among the workers. 20 This utter lack of compliance with 21 health and safety measures is due, at least in part, 22 to absence of contractor safety and health 23 personnel, and the fact that OSHA compliance 24 officers present have been limited by that agency to 25 providing only technical assistance and support at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 260 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the site. 3 Environmental health and safety plans 4 contain specific regulatory standards under which 5 operations must take place, assess the level of risk 6 being faced by those involved in the operations, and 7 contain specific training and protection 8 requirements. In this case, the absence of a plan, 9 prevented NIEHS officials from evaluating safety and 10 health issues and assessing, monitoring and exposure 11 data. 12 Even more troubling is the fact that 13 the draft plans only required that site workers be 14 given site orientation training. The issue of 15 whether any safety and health training would be 16 provided was left to the individual contractors. 17 This is so, despite the fact that there are hazards 18 present on site, such as, but not limited to, 19 asbestos, benzene and lead, for which specific OSHA 20 standards apply and require specific training. 21 And perhaps most troubling of all is 22 the fact that a determination has apparently been 23 made, that the WTC disaster site will not be 24 operated under the provisions of 29 CFR 1910.120. 25 This is the OSHA hazardous waste operations and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 261 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 emergency response standard, which provides a 3 comprehensive basis for worker training, medical 4 surveillance and exposure monitoring. 5 Finally, all of these deficiencies 6 have been exacerbated by deliberate decisions by the 7 New York City Department of Engineering and 8 Construction to refuse to supply labor 9 representatives with copies of the draft plan, and 10 refuse to permit them to participate in the safety 11 and health program development process. 12 While the designation of the Fire 13 Department was appropriate at the beginning of this 14 crisis, once a determination was made that no one 15 could have survived beyond a certain date, on that 16 date the activity at the site should have been 17 redesignated as a recovery operation. 18 The Occupational Safety and Health 19 Administration has taken the official position that 20 it does not have authority to enforce the OSH Act, 21 or any of the agency's regulations or standards. 22 This means that while OSHA has been 23 playing a consultative role as a technical advisor, 24 there have been no mandated training sessions and no 25 enforcement of personal protective equipment Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 262 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 requirements or exposure monitoring requirements. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just let me 4 interrupt you for a second while you're on that 5 point, because you were here when I questioned them 6 on their jurisdiction. You were here when I 7 questioned them on that issue. 8 MS. POLLIER: Yes. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And they did not 10 deny the fact that they did still have 11 responsibility, so that sort of contradicts. They 12 may have told you one thing, but the testimony here 13 is certainly another thing. 14 MS. POLLIER: Yes. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because I raised 16 that specific issue with them, the jurisdictional 17 issue, whether they still have the power to enforce, 18 and they still do have the power to enforce and 19 advise, and they cannot give up that. They can give 20 up the authority, but they can't give up 21 responsibility. 22 MS. POLLIER: Yes. That's exactly on 23 point. 24 There is simply nothing in the act, 25 the code of federal regulations or any directives Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 263 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 issued by the agency which permit it to evade its 3 congressionally mandated responsibilities. 4 The authorities relied upon by OSHA 5 for its refusal to begin enforcement more than six 6 weeks after the disaster are statements from the 7 Field Inspection Reference Manual stating that "OSHA 8 does not have authority to direct rescue operations 9 - this is the responsibility of the employer and/or 10 of local political subdivisions of State agencies." 11 Our specific recommendations: The 12 Center strongly urges the Committee to take a public 13 stand on the need to move officially out of the 14 rescue phase, which we've done, and the need for 15 OSHA to exercise its enforcement powers. 16 Training is needed for workers in 17 many areas, including training for asbestos, lead, 18 confined spaces, general construction safety, 19 personal protective equipment, respiratory 20 protection, fall protection and hazard 21 communications. 22 Personal exposure monitoring must be 23 put into place and provisions for medical 24 surveillance need to be established and implemented. 25 In addition, any environmental health Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 264 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 and safety site plan must be fashioned in compliance 3 with the HAZWOPER standard discussed above. 4 Finally, the City must take 5 responsibility for providing accurate information 6 and equipment to the general public, that is at risk 7 for exposures to the hazardous material present at 8 the site, and in the dust and air that is 9 circulating in the downtown area. 10 Thank you very much for your 11 attention and your critical work in bringing these 12 issues to light. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We thank all 14 three of you. I know you are going to testify. 15 I thank the three of you for being 16 here, and I listened very carefully to what you had 17 to say. You know that I covered a lot of the area 18 which you were talking about. 19 MS. POLLIER: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And that didn't 21 come about by accident. 22 Mr. Kupferman, thank you very much. 23 Very good testimony. 24 MR. POLLIER: Thank you. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I do Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 265 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 appreciate your recommendations. 3 MR. KUPFERMAN: I just wanted to make 4 a few more points -- 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sure. 6 MR. KUPFERMAN: -- I know it's been 7 dragging on. 8 One of the points -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You've been here 10 all day, so you're entitled. 11 MR. KUPFERMAN: One of the points I 12 wanted to point out was, we kept on getting reports 13 from people, that they couldn't breathe, eyes were 14 itchy, nauseousness, itchiness, asthmatic 15 conditions, whatever, and I think it's important to 16 point out that, we have to look at what information 17 wasn't given here, which people are not here 18 speaking also. 19 There are many, many workers I spoke 20 to that told me off the record or on the record that 21 they were really scared to go to work, to breathe, 22 and to continue working and living in the same area. 23 When they went to tell their bosses, 24 they were told, either take the job or just leave, 25 okay? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 266 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I spoke to City, state and federal 3 workers all over and they were scared. 4 I spoke to New York City Department 5 of Health workers, they work for City Department of 6 Health at 51 Chambers Street, people who complained 7 about breathing, and this woman said that she went 8 to the Health Department to ask for time off and 9 also to be given a mask. She was refused on both 10 accounts. I think it is really important to look 11 into these type of cases, to hear these 12 observations. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Could we get the 14 details, the names and everything else? 15 MR. KUPFERMAN: I can give you names. 16 Also to point out, that while EPA was 17 saying that things were safe, their workers in their 18 own building were given masks to wear, okay? 19 When I went down -- 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Also to say, for 21 the sake of fairness, a lot of people were concerned 22 on the adequacy of those masks. 23 MR. KUPFERMAN: We'll get to that 24 also. 25 When I went down to 120 Wall -- I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 267 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 mean 120 Broadway to consult with an attorney's firm 3 of the actions they should take, I went into the 4 Attorney General's Office and in their office they 5 had HEPA filtration systems, two big mobile units, 6 which looked really good and the air smelled a 7 little better than the other floors. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Vacuums. 9 MR. KUPFERMAN: Vacuums. 10 People, when I told people that, they 11 asked how come we're not getting this, okay? 12 Yesterday three senior New York City 13 Department of Mental Health workers came in asking 14 that someone come inspect their site, stating that 15 they really believe that the air isn't clean in 16 there, and also, there was still dust on their desks 17 when they came back to work, and one woman's desk 18 was next to a window, and this is on Worth Street, 19 okay? These are City workers. We're not talking 20 about even private industry. 21 I spoke to many cops that were near 22 the site and even a little further away from the 23 site, and these weren't eight-hour shifts, these 24 were people working 12 hours, 13 hours, 15 hours, 25 whatever, and what got them most upset is I asked Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 268 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 them, did anyone ever tell you that you can't take 3 the uniform home, or you shouldn't take the uniform 4 home and wash it with your kids 5 clothes? And they told me no one ever told them 6 that, okay? 7 These are mitigation measures that 8 cost very, very little money, and they're not being 9 done. 10 I spoke to subway worker after subway 11 worker, and what's interesting about the subways is 12 that the subways, the trains themselves act as 13 conduits, they push the air backwards and forwards. 14 I asked them, and this is in the beginning time, in 15 the beginning of this whole mess, how come you're 16 not wearing any masks? And they said, EPA 17 Commissioner said it's safe. And I heard this from 18 more and more people. And I just want to say, I want 19 to commend the EPA, though, for giving us the data 20 that we requested. 21 New York City Detectives Association 22 brought us in to speak to them, because they were 23 concerned about working at the site in Staten 24 Island. And what's interesting, the reason why their 25 concerns were raised is that they saw the federal Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 269 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 workers getting better equipment than they did, 3 okay? They hired an industrial hygienist, presented 4 some demands and they were finally given the proper 5 equipment, including showers and the like. 6 So, these are just anecdotes. When I 7 told this to several agencies, they said this is 8 just anecdotes. Where did we go to? We went to Mount 9 Sinai Clinic to ask them if they had any problems, 10 and Dr. Levin, who was going to testify today, had 11 to leave to go see patients, and he told me, and you 12 can double check with him, that there's been 13 numerous cases of occupational asthma cited in that 14 clinic and many other problems, upper respiratory -- 15 MS. ROSSOL: Upper airway reactive 16 diseases that they're seeing from the extreme 17 irritation. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I hope he will 19 be able to come back on November the 8th. 20 MR. KUPFERMAN: Okay. But I think it's 21 important to speak to them, and I think why it's 22 important to speak to Mount Sinai Clinic, and not 23 just the New York City Health Clinics, is that we 24 were here a year ago and two years ago over the 25 whole pesticide issue, okay? And we ended up finding Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 270 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 five of the sprayers, and then two other ones that 3 were sprayed, we sent them to Mount Sinai Clinic and 4 they found occupational asthma insecticide 5 poisoning. 6 I happened to be in the same building 7 doing one of their workers' comp cases a week ago, 8 and we found the doctor that diagnosed one of them 9 the first time, he had a serious lesion in his nose, 10 and has been diagnosed since with occupational 11 asthma and pesticide poisoning. He was never told by 12 the New York City Health Department, that's who he 13 works for, to look for pesticide poisoning. I think 14 the major problem here is that the City has yet to 15 create a registry of people's complaints, and, yet, 16 one of the policies of the New York City Health 17 Department is to tell people to go to their private 18 physicians. 19 Also, OSHA told us there is a site 20 that people could file their complaints. I believe 21 most of the workers who work at that site aren't 22 going to go over there and fill out a form. What 23 they're going to do is they're going to go home and 24 not exactly know where their illness, or whatever 25 their symptoms are coming from, and go to their Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 271 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 private physician, okay? 3 These private physicians are not 4 getting any information from the City Health 5 Department or the State Health Department to look 6 for certain symptoms. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I didn't use the 8 term registry, but I certainly suggested to them 9 that they should be getting this information and the 10 causal relationship, or the alleged causal 11 relationship between the illnesses that doctors and 12 hospitals and all other medical personnel are 13 receiving in order to be able to determine what the 14 statistics are, to determine that there is some 15 problems. And I think you're absolutely right, it 16 should be a registry. It's not an unusual thing, 17 we've done this before in other areas. For instance, 18 child abuse, where they would go from one hospital, 19 and then they would go take it to another hospital, 20 because they didn't want the same hospital to see 21 the child abuse, it developed a central registry so 22 that people would know that the child abuse had 23 happened at other occasions. 24 MR. KUPFERMAN: Right, but it's really 25 great that all these studies are being done now, a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 272 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 month and a half afterwards. Where was the 3 information back when we needed it most? 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We still need 5 the information. 6 MR. KUPFERMAN: I'm not discounting 7 that at all. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're right. 9 You're right. 10 MR. KUPFERMAN: And I'm the first one 11 to promote the most information out there. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That should be 13 the impetus about making sure that we make sure that 14 we get this information as soon as possible, the 15 fact that we haven't been doing what should have 16 been done, and also because it may be the in the 17 short-term, we may want to see who these people are, 18 because they may suffer as a result of a long-term 19 situation, and we may find out that the PEL or other 20 standards they are using are really not proper 21 standards, the people who are being exposed are 22 going to be damaged by that. 23 MR. KUPFERMAN: And also getting back 24 to the timeliness of information, now a lot of 25 information is on the site, the web site, EPA web Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 273 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 site, okay? But the information that we got, and 3 this is the whole time we are being told it's safe, 4 this is out of the -- these are some excerpts from 5 the documents that we recently obtained. 6 Dioxin. Ten samples were collected on 7 October 2nd and analyzed to be dioxin furans. Four 8 of the samples showed results above the guideline 9 level at which EPA should take some type of action 10 to reduce people's exposure. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What are we 12 reading from there? 13 MR. KUPFERMAN: We are reading from, I 14 handed in this document. These are statements taken 15 out of -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What's the 17 source of the information? 18 MR. KUPFERMAN: EPA documents. This is 19 all their monitoring documents. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's probably 21 in the index. 22 MR. KUPFERMAN: And it might be a 23 little unfair that we're mentioning EPA over and 24 over again, as I said before, we got nothing from 25 the state and nothing from the City. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 274 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: At least you got 3 the information from the EPA. 4 MR. KUPFERMAN: Yes. But in some ways 5 it's maybe like getting the seating plan to the 6 Titanic after the boat sailed, all right? 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You are talking 8 about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? 9 MR. KUPFERMAN: October 14th, benzene 10 exceeded the OSHA's time weighted average 11 permissible levels at two locations on both days. 12 Six, ambient air sampling locations, 13 September 23rd. Chromium levels were identified at 14 three locations, Barclay, West Broadway, Albany, 15 Albany and South End, of the EPA removal action 16 guidance levels. 17 Nine, EPA sampling and response 18 action. Internal use."13 new asbestos samples, 19 analyzed from the 13 two new fix air monitors in 20 Lower Manhattan. 21 Five of the 13 had levels above the 22 EPA school standard. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I have that 24 document, and you reading from it I have no problem, 25 but if you will identify it, so we have -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 275 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. KUPFERMAN: Sure. This is -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Identify the 4 name. 5 MR. KUPFERMAN: This document is World 6 Trade Center Incident Environmental Health Concerns 7 that we handed in to you, which is excerpts that we 8 extracted -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there a date 10 on that document? 11 MR. KUPFERMAN: It's today's date, 12 okay? 13 I just want to read one or two more. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Fine. 15 I just wanted to be able to identify 16 it for the record. 17 MR. KUPFERMAN: Daily summary, 18 September 28th. Ambient air, non-fix monitors. VOCs, 19 Volatile Organic Compounds, six samples were taken 20 on 9/16, in and above ground zero. The one sample 21 taken at ground level showed a benzene level above 22 the OSHA standards. 23 13. Daily summary. October 3rd. 24 Ambient air sampling. Dioxin. Ten dioxin sampling 25 was done on September 23rd in the vicinity of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 276 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 emergency response operation. All samples were at or 3 above EPL's removal action guideline, which is based 4 on a 30-year, 24 hour exposure scenario. 5 14. October 4th. Ambient air sampling 6 metals. Ten samples were taken on October 2nd within 7 the vicinity of the emergency response operation. Of 8 these, chromium result to four samples exceeded 9 EPA's removal guideline. Benzene detected. 10 And then we end up with a little 11 sample that they told us that some of the metal was 12 taken across the river to New Jersey, and there was 13 readings of 34 percent asbestos, okay? 14 So, we're not saying that it's even 15 dangerous, I won't go even that far. We're saying it 16 raises concerns. And I think what happened is when 17 people raise these concerns, they were told that 18 it's been safe. 19 So, what did we do in the beginning 20 when we couldn't get this information? We went out 21 and we grabbed our own samples, okay? And we picked 22 up a sample near Vesey Street and Church, right in 23 front of the Post Office, and we sent it to two 24 labs, one being ATC, that I mentioned before, and 25 this is important, the second one we sent to a lab Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 277 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in Virginia, called Environmental Toxicology 3 International. One of the samples came up with 5 4 percent asbestos and 90 percent fiberglass. That's 5 not the end of the story. This lab wants to do more 6 tests for us and to test other metals. 7 They were contacted by the New York 8 State Department of Health, and was told not to do 9 any more testing because they are not certified in 10 New York State, although they are certified in 11 Virginia and other states. 12 I think it's very interesting that 13 New York State didn't have enough time to do all the 14 monitoring and better tests, but they had enough 15 time to send the letter and to harass the lab that 16 was willing to do this test for us. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are they going 18 to continue to do testing? 19 MR. KUPFERMAN: Excuse me? 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They still will 21 do testing even though they were -- 22 MR. KUPFERMAN: Yes, but that lab is 23 basically scared out of their wits that they will be 24 a large investigation. I mean, there's a problem 25 that a few labs that do the work are told not to do Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 278 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 it. And I was told by a representative from ATC that 3 spoke to a tenants group on Duane Street, that they 4 were told not to do swipe samples anymore either. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I would like all 6 the information with respect to that, and I will 7 follow up on that because I believe that's terrible. 8 Not only that, I want to see the 9 result of their tests. 10 MR. KUPFERMAN: All of that is 11 available. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's one of 13 the reasons I questioned that, because I had 14 knowledge that other testing was being done. This is 15 governmental testing, and I wanted them to consider 16 all, give me a reason why they wouldn't consider it. 17 MS. ROSSOL: I found that one of the 18 most heartwarming areas of what you did, you said, 19 of course, you would really be willing to look at 20 the tests from anyone who is a certified lab, and 21 that's exactly what they should be doing, and they 22 should be sharing of all of that data, it should be 23 all out in the open. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Anything else? 25 That's it? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 279 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. KUPFERMAN: No, I got a little bit 3 more. 4 Then in the same report we found 5 chemicals going into the Hudson River, at dioxin 6 levels that were five times more than New York State 7 DEC has ever seen, including chromium, copper, lead 8 and zinc. 9 I think what all of these great 10 experts this morning were trying to impress upon us 11 is that you have 110 story building, two of them, 12 crashing, and basically all the chemicals that are 13 there are going to go up, out and straight down to 14 the ground, and anything they found going into the 15 Hudson River, all of those molecules lined up in a 16 perfect row, and went right into one outlet, and 17 they're basically claiming that the fact it was 18 found going into the Hudson River, we didn't find 19 any other monitoring reports that it was elsewhere. 20 And then, on the other hand, when we 21 do ask where the monitoring reports are, they will 22 tell us they don't have the data or they didn't test 23 elsewhere. So, we have a problem that you have these 24 two large towers in these other buildings, that 25 people testified before had anything from Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 280 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 typewriters to a shooting range, which was basically 3 public knowledge, I think there was two, three state 4 officials that weren't even aware of that fact, 5 there was hundreds, thousands bullets of lead. These 6 are the people we are depending to tell us that the 7 air is okay to breathe. 8 It's interesting that we had to go to 9 an out-of-state lab. We had to rely on an 10 out-of-state e-mail that was sent to us from 11 Ralleigh, North Carolina, that quoted someone from 12 the NIEHS, the National Institute of Environmental 13 Health Sciences, one of the directors said, I 14 believe there is 200 hazardous chemicals at that 15 site, and we're going to send someone in from NYU 16 Environmental Department to gather those samples. 17 And, so, it was the federal 18 government themselves that alarmed us, and we've 19 been accused of being alarmists, said there's 20 something there. 21 We didn't hear anything from them 22 about those reports. We waited a week, we kept on 23 calling and calling, and, finally, we spoke to the 24 Assistant Director, and the Assistant Director said, 25 due to budget problems and bureaucratic planning Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 281 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 problems, they no longer are going to handle those 3 tests, to go speak to EPA and OSHA, that they're 4 doing their tests. Okay? 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You are charging 6 a cover up? 7 MR. KUPFERMAN: Whatever. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's what 9 you're charging. 10 MR. KUPFERMAN: And what I'm saying 11 here as the lawyer, and this is the law part, that a 12 lot of the laws that are on the books that should be 13 enforced are not being enforced, and that's what it 14 comes down to. 15 In the beginning I could understand, 16 it's always been the emergency scenario, but after 17 the third day, the fifth day and after the third 18 week, we can no longer use that. 19 The Community Right To Know Law, 20 federal law, states that a private industry has to 21 tell you which hazardous chemicals are in their 22 building, and if there is emission, they have to 23 tell you what's been emitted, under penalty of law. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Mr. Kupferman, 25 why do you think they're doing this? What's their Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 282 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 motivation? 3 MR. KUPFERMAN: I think two things: I 4 think one is that there has been this whole return 5 to normalcy, that things are really -- you know, 6 that the attacks on the World Trade Center aren't 7 going to affect our daily lives, so one way to prove 8 that is to send workers and residents back into 9 so-called normal conditions, and it's anything but 10 normal in this area. 11 And the second thing, I think the 12 bold assertion, that there are many, many real 13 estate interests, they have a real large interest to 14 make sure that values in this area stay high and 15 that resale values and rents stay high. 16 MS. ROSSOL: That also has to do with 17 my issue, in that I think that the reason that they 18 don't want to have home owners testing and finding 19 out what's actually in their apartments and in their 20 businesses is that it will cost money to clean those 21 up. 22 For instance, some of them have 23 ventilation systems that are now contaminated. Also, 24 those old ventilation systems are lined with 25 fiberglass and are impossible to clean, and really Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 283 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 probably will have to be taken out in some cases and 3 rebuilt. That's a very expensive process. But if 4 they can just convince everybody that the dust is 5 safe and they shouldn't worry about it, they can get 6 people back in their buildings and in their 7 businesses without doing the kind of environmental 8 testing that should be done. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I have always 10 been interested in, as you may know, in the Sick 11 Building Syndrome, and I think this may have 12 exacerbated that situation. 13 MS. ROSSOL: When NYOSH did studies of 14 Sick Building Syndrome, one of the major causes was 15 fiberglass from the duct work. Now we've got 16 fiberglass from the World Trade Center added to 17 this. We really need to look at that. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The only time 19 they ever act is when they have an allegation of 20 legionnaries' disease, which also comes from the 21 ventilation systems. 22 MS. ROSSOL: Yes. 23 MR. KUPFERMAN: But also it's 24 interesting, they said -- I mean, a colleague read 25 the report that workers weren't wearing masks, and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 284 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 unfortunately I didn't bring the front page of last 3 Monday's New York Times, it showed the World Trade 4 Center site, six workers, and only one was wearing a 5 mask. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Maybe they were 7 posing for the photographer. 8 MR. KUPFERMAN: Okay. 9 And the second thing is, I mention 10 the New York Times again, and this Tuesday's Science 11 Section, everyone has been talking about Anthrax and 12 how it travels so, so far, whatever, and, so, we're 13 being warned and being alarmed about Anthrax 14 traveling for miles and miles, floating in the air, 15 and yet we're being told that all these other list 16 of chemicals, the whole periodic chart, basically 17 flies up and down. 18 So, it's interesting to point out in 19 that article, they said one of the best defenses 20 against Anthrax is a proper air conditioning and 21 filtration system, to fit the best HEPA-type 22 equipments or whatever, and what I have been hearing 23 story after story of landlords telling their tenants 24 that they're not going to put in a new filtration 25 system or a new air conditioning system because the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 285 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 need isn't there. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're 4 recommending that we insist and make sure that EPA, 5 whoever has the jurisdiction over acquiring it, to 6 put decent air conditioning systems acquire this -- 7 MR. KUPFERMAN: Right. And I think 8 it's also important to point out that a lot of 9 insurance companies cited New York City Health 10 Department and the EPA in refusing to give insurance 11 to people to use the proper methods. 12 One person was told by an insurance 13 company, I'll give you the details, also not to 14 disclose in public, she had a half inch of dust all 15 over her table and furniture, and the insurance 16 agent came to her house and said you could just use 17 a regular vacuum cleaner to clean this up. 18 We took a sample of her dust, sent it 19 to ATC labs, the same lab the City uses, and found 20 2.2 percent asbestos. 21 And what concerns us is that, we're a 22 non-profit public interest law firm counseling all 23 these people, and they shouldn't have to come to us 24 or to a private lawyer to get this information, 25 okay? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 286 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 So, it's really important that people 3 are allowed, enabled to do that, and, yet, the City 4 is telling ATC labs not to let people do ATC. What 5 would this woman do without those lab results? Where 6 would she go? 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I don't know 8 where she would go, but what concerns me is that the 9 result of being exposed to asbestos is asbestosis, 10 and it sometimes takes a long time to show itself, 11 so that by the time they show it, the condition is 12 no longer existing and very difficult to prove where 13 it came from. 14 MS. ROSSOL: Yes. And the difficulty 15 with both the fiberglass and the asbestos, is if it 16 is not cleaned up properly, the person in that home 17 environment is going to have 24 hour a day exposure 18 to small amounts for years and years and years, 19 because it's so difficult to get out. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It won't 21 manifest itself until years in the future. 22 MS. ROSSOL: That's right. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Because we know 24 in asbestos cases -- 25 MS. ROSSOL: Ten years down the line, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 287 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 ten, 20 years. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The John 4 Mansville situation. 5 MS. ROSSOL: Right. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Anything else? 7 MR. KUPFERMAN: No, I just wanted to 8 maybe in conclusion, I think it's really important 9 for your Committee to push the whole Council to make 10 sure that the workers and the residents are not just 11 used as pawns down here, they're being physically 12 forced one way or the other back into smelling the 13 stuff on a daily, daily basis, and we have actual 14 medical evidence that people are getting sick, and 15 yet, we have several government agencies that refuse 16 to produce the data on which they are basing their 17 conclusions on. 18 So, I think in some ways, and I just 19 want to say that, just one more anecdote, and I'm 20 filled with them, that three New York State workers 21 who worked for New York State for over 20 years each 22 are quitting working on Park Place, because they 23 asked to be moved somewhere else, and they told me 24 it's not just because the air is bad, that they feel 25 that the government is mistreating them, and they're Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 288 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 so arrogant in their statements that they could just 3 be told it's safe, despite all the other evidence. 4 I think what we have here is going to 5 have -- we talk about rebuilding New York, you're 6 going to see a large amount of people leaving City 7 and State government that took many, many years to 8 develop a workforce. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 10 much, both of you. I appreciate it. 11 MR. KUPFERMAN: You're welcome. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Next we're going 13 to have a panel of George Thurston, Associate 14 Professor of NYU School of Medicine, and Paolo 15 Toniolo and Jo Wiederhorn, from NYU School of 16 Medicine. Thank you very much. 17 While you're setting up, for two 18 minutes we want to take a little break. Please sit 19 down. 20 (Recess taken.) 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 22 much for your interest in the topic, and identify 23 yourselves and proceed. 24 DR. THURSTON: I will start first, 25 since I have the powerpoint -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 289 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You just have to 3 identify yourself for the record. 4 DR. THURSTON: My name is George 5 Thurston. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think you have 7 to push it in. 8 DR. THURSTON: It's not on? That 9 should do it. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, that's 11 fine. 12 DR. THURSTON: My name is George 13 Thurston. I'm on the faculty at the NYU School of 14 Medicine, and we've been involved with doing air 15 monitoring in the days and weeks following the World 16 Trade Center disaster. 17 I think there was a reference made to 18 the fact that we did get a call from NIHS urging us 19 to go and do samples, collect samples of dust, and 20 to do as much air monitoring as we could, and we 21 basically took the resources that we had available 22 to us and NYU and brought them down to the NYU 23 downtown hospital and monitored there, and what I'm 24 going to show you today are some of the results that 25 we have from our dust and air monitoring. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 290 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Our investigations are focused 3 primarily on particle air pollution. It's known that 4 exposures to high levels of particulate matter, PM, 5 such as soot, can have severe health effects, 6 including increased numbers of hospitalization, 7 heart attacks, and asthma exacerbation, and both Pat 8 Kinney, who is on my left, from Columbia, and I have 9 been involved in doing that research, relating air 10 pollution to adverse health effects. 11 Now, you should have copies of my -- 12 did you pass out the copies of my slides? I made 13 them available to the Committee in a powerpoint 14 presentation for you. 15 As this slide points out, the health 16 effects are primarily among especially at-risk 17 people in the population, such as those with 18 pre-existing health effects, health problems, such 19 as emphysema, or cardiac problems, people with 20 asthma. 21 What have we collected in the process 22 of our investigation? We've collected World Trade 23 Center ground, dust samples that we collected in the 24 week following the disaster, and that was done by 25 both NYU and UMDNJ, University of Medicine and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 291 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Dentistry of New Jersey. 3 And we've been at the NYU downtown 4 hospital since the 14th of September, we've been 5 doing day and night particle mass measurements and 6 hourly carbon or soot measurements in the air. 7 So, this is a monitor that looks 8 specifically at soot, would be related to a good 9 marker for the plume. And we also have monitoring 10 that we do uptown, or midtown at Hunter College, as 11 part of ongoing research there. 12 The map here is a little difficult to 13 see, but these are the locations where we collected 14 dust throughout the area, so you see we not only got 15 dust samples right at the World Trade Center, but in 16 a variety of areas surrounding the disaster area. 17 And just to show you some of the 18 results, that I think are some of the most salient 19 results that almost -- what we did was we petitioned 20 the dust sample. We did it in an aggregate way, but 21 we re-aerosolized the dust and collected it into 22 size fractions, so that the big dust particles would 23 be separate from the smaller ones, and the larger 24 particles are the ones that your upper airways, your 25 nose, your mouth, your throat can capture before Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 292 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 they get into the lung. And what we found was that 3 the vast majority, you know, around 99 percent of 4 the particles, were larger than 10 microns or 5 micrometers in diameter, and those are the particles 6 that don't readily penetrate into the lung. 7 So, most of the particles that were 8 in the dust were of the nature, size that our 9 defense mechanisms of our body would be able to stop 10 them from getting into the deep lung and seriously 11 affecting our health. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is UM the symbol 13 for microns? 14 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Microns or 15 micrometers, yes. Sorry. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's okay. 17 DR. THURSTON: And basically that's 18 the point at which 10 micrometers or less are, 19 that's thoracic particles, ones that can get past 20 the throat and get deeper into the lung. The ones 21 bigger than 10 are the ones that don't readily get 22 into the lungs and tend to be caught by our natural 23 defense mechanisms. So, those are the ones of less 24 health concern. They certainly could cause symptoms, 25 the large particles would be caught in the mouth and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 293 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 throat and get in your eyes and could give you the 3 kinds of symptoms that we hear people having, so I'm 4 not saying, you know, this is not going to affect 5 you, but most of the particles, 99 percent of the 6 dust anyway, wouldn't get deep into your lungs and 7 have serious health consequences, the ones that get 8 deeper. 9 So, what I'm saying is it's a very 10 small fraction of the particles of that type that 11 would be small enough to get deep in the lung. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You do know that 13 the chart that was shown here before, that the 14 testing was done in particulate matter, less than 10 15 microns and particulate matter less than 2.5 16 microns. I would imagine if it's less than 2.5 17 microns it would be extremely dangerous? 18 DR. THURSTON: Yes, that's even more 19 dangerous because they can get the deepest into the 20 lung, that's right. 21 And we monitor for both PM 2.5 and PM 22 10. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're not 24 talking about dust, these are particulates? 25 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Let me make it Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 294 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 very clear what we're talking about. 3 In that former case on the data here, 4 that's the dust that we collected off the ground, 5 and in order to get an idea of the size distribution 6 of that, we re-aerosolized it. But then we're also 7 collecting from the ambient environment samples in 8 the air, so capturing it from the air. 9 So, the ground, the dust samples we 10 collected off the ground and the air samples are 11 using a pump to sample it onto a filter after 12 selecting out the fine particles. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right. 14 DR. THURSTON: And, you know, when we 15 look at the dust samples, what we found was very 16 little in the way of asbestos in the samples that we 17 collected throughout the area around the world trade 18 center. 19 In fact, none of the samples that we 20 collected, and there were many more than these, but 21 there was just a representative collection, exceeded 22 that 1 percent limit, would define it as an 23 asbestos-bearing substance. So, overall the dust did 24 not exceed that, the ones that we collected, and if 25 you look in the fine fraction, the ones that would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 295 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 get deepest into the lung, we didn't find, it wasn't 3 even a trace, there was none in that sample where we 4 re-aerosolized the dust. 5 As you see, there's also cellulos, a 6 paper kind of thing. Mineral wool, that category is 7 really largely fiberglass, and there is a lot of 8 fiberglass in these dust samples that we found. But 9 again the fiberglass is not a proven carcinogen the 10 way asbestos is. That's why people are so much more 11 concerned about asbestos than they are about 12 fiberglass. 13 So, again, let me reiterate something 14 that I think was mentioned before, that when these 15 things are of concern is when you get exposed to it 16 for many years at the levels. So, these are not 17 acutely toxic in terms of causing cancer, you have 18 to be exposed to it for many years in order to have 19 the health risks, serious health risks associated 20 with asbestos. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: When you say 22 exposed to it, could you get it into your system and 23 just keep it into your system for many years or do 24 you have to have constant exposure? 25 DR. THURSTON: Well, some would be Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 296 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 retained, but, no, the idea of it would be that you 3 would be in like a workplace, where you would be 4 exposed to new amounts every day, every week for 20 5 years, and then that's when the health risk is much 6 greater. You know, when you're talking about OSHA 7 standards and things like that, you're talking about 8 long exposures, not something like we're talking 9 about here with a matter of months of exposure, 10 okay? 11 So, that's the distinction that the 12 Daily News article failed to make very clearly. I 13 mean, I think it pointed to it in a little place, 14 but a lot of people were very scared by them talking 15 about things that are not acutely toxic, and they 16 are looking at short-term exposures, but would be a 17 problem if it were for many years, which it 18 hopefully will not be. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You say that 20 fiberglass has not been proven to be a carcinogen? 21 DR. THURSTON: No. Not the way that 22 asbestos has, that's right. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I understand 24 that, but has it proven -- so far you haven't proved 25 it's a carcinogen, have we completely eliminated it Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 297 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 as a carcinogen? 3 DR. THURSTON: No, I can't say that. 4 I would say that there are some who 5 suspect that it may be a cancer-causing compound, 6 but that has not yet been proven. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are tests being 8 done to determine -- 9 DR. THURSTON: Yes, I think research 10 is continuing and people are looking into that, so I 11 wouldn't give it a clean bill of health, but -- 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You can't 13 dismiss it yet? 14 DR. THURSTON: What? 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You can't 16 dismiss it? 17 DR. THURSTON: You can't dismiss it. 18 But, again, it would be many years of exposure -- 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Exposure? 20 DR. THURSTON: Yes, that you would be 21 concerned about that, not days or weeks. You know, 22 you can't take a one-day sample, and compare it to a 23 lifetime working standard. So, that's an important 24 distinction, but I think that the Daily News article 25 glossed over and I think misled people to some Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 298 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 extent and created more concern than was warranted 3 by the data that they had at hand. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You wanted to 5 say something, Doctor? 6 DR. KINNEY: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Identify 8 yourself. 9 DR. KINNEY: I'm Pat Kinney from the 10 Columbia School of Public Health. 11 I wanted to say something about the 12 issue you just raised concerning fiberglass. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please do. 14 DR. KINNEY: One thing that's 15 different about fiberglass compared to asbestos 16 fibers, is that fiberglass fibers tend to be larger, 17 and, therefore don't get inhaled as deeply in the 18 lungs as asbestos fibers. Fibers need to get deep 19 into the lungs to cause cancer. 20 The other thing about fiberglass that 21 makes it less of a concern from a cancer perspective 22 is that fiberglass particles that do land in the 23 lungs break up over time and get cleared out of the 24 lungs, in contrast to asbestos which doesn't break 25 up, it stays there, gets imbedded in the lungs, it Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 299 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 stays for years and years and eventually causes 3 irritation and cancer. 4 So, there are some things about 5 fiberglass that make it different, so we tend to be 6 less concerned. 7 I agree, though, with George, the 8 jury is still out. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Oh, yes, I 10 understand. 11 So, let me ask you this: The 12 experience here is quite a different experience than 13 has ever happened before. Here we have a building 14 which was just loaded with fiberglass, it was used, 15 other than over the 40th floor, which had been using 16 asbestos, and the pulverization that took place here 17 as a result of the collapse and the fire, did that 18 have the tendency to make the fiberglass into 19 smaller pieces? 20 DR. KINNEY: I haven't seen any data, 21 but I think there has been the suggestion that both 22 asbestos and fiberglass fibers got broken up into 23 smaller pieces. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That makes it 25 more dangerous then? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 300 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. KINNEY: It would make it more 3 dangerous during the collapse and in the cloud 4 following the collapse. Although once those 5 particles land and get stuck to other particles, 6 they are no longer free-flying small particles, and 7 they become much less of a concern. 8 So what we're dealing with now is -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They do it here 10 to each other? 11 DR. KINNEY: They do it here and to 12 the cement particles and everything else. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And does the 14 asbestos still have the same characteristics? 15 DR. KINNEY: Yes. All particles are 16 very sticky to one another. Once they land and then 17 get resuspended, get stirred up -- 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, they're more 19 dangerous to the ambient air? 20 DR. KINNEY: They're more dangerous 21 when they're first generated. Once they've landed 22 and get regenerated they tend to be less dangerous 23 because they are on large particles. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They do have the 25 tendency to settle down? Not stay in the air? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 301 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. KINNEY: Yes, over a period of 3 time. 4 So, the cloud that was created during 5 the collapse, probably had a lot of very small 6 asbestos and fiberglass particles. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Those have 8 settled? 9 DR. KINNEY: Those are settled by now. 10 What we are seeing now is the resuspension of that, 11 which is then going to be glomed on with a lot of 12 other bigger particles. And as George said, most of 13 that is going to land in the upper airways, cause 14 the irritation, but not serious health impact. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Someone said 16 something about Formaldehyde being involved with it, 17 or am I mistaken? And fiberglass? 18 DR. THURSTON: I don't know about 19 Formaldehyde. Formaldehyde, again, would be 20 something that a long-term exposure would be a risk. 21 I did want to point out for the 22 fiberglass -- thank you, Pat, it was helpful -- that 23 if you look at the table right here, where we have 24 size fractionated it, the greater than 53 microns 25 and then 53 to 10 and then less than 2.5. Now, this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 302 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 is one sample where we did this, but if you read 3 across to the mineral wool, which would include 4 fiberglass, it says none. So there was no fiberglass 5 at all in the very small particles. 6 There was on the order of 40 percent 7 of the samples for the ones that don't get deep in 8 your lungs, the ones that are captured in the upper 9 airways, that's where the fiberglass resided. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, I 11 understand. 12 DR. THURSTON: Okay? 13 So, now, we also looked at the 14 acidity of the dust, and what we found was that it 15 was very alkaline, which would be very irritating. 16 Your body wants pH7, which is neither acid nor 17 alkaline, it's neutral, but we have a pH of 10 to 12 18 in many of the samples, so that would mean, and the 19 bulk samples, and that would mean that the dust that 20 people were getting in their mouths, their eyes, 21 their throats, would be very irritating, which fits 22 with some of the symptoms that we have seen. 23 And, yet, when you look at the sample 24 where it is the very small particles, less than PM 25 2.5, the pH is almost nearly 7. So, again, this fits Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 303 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in with our data which finds a lot of cement dust in 3 the large particles, that would make it very 4 alkaline and irritating in the large particles that 5 get in your eyes, nose, your throat, but your 6 defense mechanisms work very well against that. So, 7 you would get symptoms, but you wouldn't be being 8 exposed to things deep in your lung that would have 9 long-term or more severe health effects. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Why aren't the 11 small particles alkaline -- 12 DR. THURSTON: Because the cement dust 13 is big. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The dust doesn't 15 get into your lungs. In other words, you're saying 16 that that part of dust that is cement does not get 17 into your lungs, but other parts of the dust do get 18 into your lungs -- 19 DR. THURSTON: The other components, 20 they do. But not -- 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And what are 22 those components? 23 DR. THURSTON: Well, there is soot in 24 there. We saw a lot of soot. That was your 25 combustion particles would be very fine. So, things Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 304 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 relating to the fires would be down there, that 3 would be a big part of that. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And we heard 5 some testimony with respect to asthma, occupational 6 asthma, workers coming down with symptoms with 7 occupational asthma, I think was the expression 8 used; what would cause that? Can anybody tell us 9 about that? 10 DR. THURSTON: I wouldn't venture to 11 guess as to what type of asthma. The occupational 12 exposures are going to be much higher than what the 13 public is being exposed to a few blocks away. I 14 would think that would be consistent with them not 15 wearing their protection, their respiratory 16 protection. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What is causing 18 it? What type of -- 19 DR. THURSTON: Well, it could be 20 irritation from the dust. Some of it could get 21 through to the upper airways and, you know, asthma 22 is more an upper airway -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do any of the 24 other doctors have any other explanation? 25 DR. THURSTON: Pat? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 305 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Obviously they 3 are not wearing their masks because they are being 4 exposed to it. 5 DR. TONIOLO: Not concluded evidence, 6 unless -- 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please identify 8 yourself. 9 DR. TONIOLO: Paolo Toniolo, from New 10 York University School of Medicine. We haven't seen 11 the studies, we haven't seen the evidence, so we 12 cannot -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You haven't come 14 across any occupational asthma? 15 DR. TONIOLO: Not personally. I'm not 16 involved in an occupational clinic. But I haven't 17 seen the data. I haven't seen studies that address 18 these issues, so I can believe it when I see it. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. Seek 20 that information from other people. 21 DR. THURSTON: Again, I think, you 22 know, the important point here is to draw a 23 distinction between what the workers on the site are 24 being exposed to and what the public is being 25 exposed to. And, again, that distinction was made Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 306 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 very clearly in some other newspaper reports, and 3 that's an important distinction, because 4 concentrations drop off exponentially with distance, 5 such that the concentrations you would get right at 6 the World Trade Center would be very different from 7 blocks away. 8 DR. KINNEY: I'd like to add one 9 thing. I'd like to endorse your earlier comment 10 advocating increased surveillance for these 11 occupational health outcomes. I think that there 12 needs to be coordination. You know, I think we ought 13 to have records, because later on when we go back 14 and look we might see some occupational asthma 15 happening if we're careful now in collecting the 16 data. So, I endorse your comment earlier, a couple 17 hours earlier when you were discussing -- 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The long-term 19 effects you were talking about? 20 DR. KINNEY: Even short term. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Short term. 22 DR. KINNEY: Over the next several 23 months we ought to have a registry sort of, you 24 know, across all the hospitals -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think that's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 307 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 very important. 3 DR. KINNEY: Of people that go to the 4 hospital with occupationally-induced problems. 5 DR. TONIOLO: This is the time to 6 collect the data, otherwise we will never know. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's right. 8 Thank you. Continue. 9 DR. THURSTON: Okay. 10 We also looked at metals in the dust, 11 and that work was a collaboration of the University 12 of Notre Dame and Lamont-Doherty, affiliated with 13 Columbia, and the most notable thing was the lead. 14 The lead levels, you know, based on what we've heard 15 today we know, that's not surprising it was 16 elevated, but, again, these levels that we recorded 17 were within the standard, you know, the restrictive 18 standards for playground soil. 19 You could have this dust as 20 playground soil, based on lead alone, and it would 21 be perfectly legal. Which limits 400 PPM, these are 22 all below that. 23 Now, if it gets inside someone's 24 home, that's a different story because the standards 25 are much more restrictive in a home where an infant Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 308 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 might be crawling around and spending long periods 3 of time, so there certainly is a risk to infants in 4 homes where a lot of this dust got in, and, of 5 course, I think the advice that was given earlier on 6 the professional cleaning of homes that have dust 7 and make absolutely sure, especially where infants 8 are concerned. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of course. 10 That's the law. 11 DR. THURSTON: Right. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Which I wrote, 13 by the way. 14 DR. THURSTON: Oh, good. Thank you. 15 Now, we also -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the 17 playgrounds could be dangerous too, because we found 18 there was leaded paint in painting some of the bars 19 and things years ago, now it's outlawed, of course, 20 and the lead seeped into the ground, and then the 21 children, infants can be in playgrounds, too, and we 22 know the culprit now is dust, dust on their hands 23 and they lick their hands. 24 DR. THURSTON: Right. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But we're not as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 309 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 vulnerable, adults are not as vulnerable. We 3 probably have huge amounts of lead in our bodies 4 right now. 5 DR. THURSTON: Well, certainly some 6 residual -- 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If children had 8 it -- 9 DR. THURSTON: -- From when there was 10 gasoline -- lead in gasoline, which we can all 11 remember, that there would be residual from that. 12 But air has diminished that -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Where we removed 14 the lead we added something else. 15 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: MTBEs -- 17 DR. THURSTON: Right. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Which are now 19 water soluble and very easily in our water systems. 20 DR. THURSTON: A groundwater problem, 21 that's right. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You should be 23 aware, I was a member of a group that just 24 recommended we ban the MTBEs from gasoline. 25 DR. THURSTON: Yes, sometimes less is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 310 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 more. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It was good for 4 the air quality, but it was terrible for the water 5 system. 6 DR. THURSTON: Right. 7 So, the switch from the dust to the 8 particle, the air data, the samples collected from 9 the air, and we had set up by Friday after the World 10 Trade Center disaster at the nearby NYU downtown 11 hospital, which is just a matter of blocks from the 12 World Trade Center, and right near us -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What used to be 14 known as the Beekman Downtown Hospital. 15 DR. THURSTON: Yes, it used to be 16 called that. 17 Which I understand was a hospital 18 that was set up after the terrorist action in the 19 twenties, at Wall Street. Someone told me that 20 story, I think it's true. 21 Remember there was a terrorist attack 22 at Wall Street in the twenties, and they said -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Before my time. 24 DR. THURSTON: You don't remember 25 that, huh? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 311 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 So they said they needed a hospital 3 down here in case they ever got another terrorist 4 attack. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, they were 6 known to have a very fine emergency room, trauma 7 care center. 8 DR. THURSTON: Yes. So, we did learn 9 something from the last time, and they were there, 10 and they did help in dealing with the victim. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I am informed it 12 was as a result of the bombing of the JP Morgan 13 building. 14 DR. THURSTON: Oh, was it? Okay. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Reliably 16 informed. 17 DR. THURSTON: Oh, reliably informed, 18 okay. Good staff. 19 And, so, here's some data that we've 20 collected there that I think is especially revealing 21 and useful, and that's the soot levels. We are 22 measuring carbon, which is a good marker for 23 something like the plume coming out from the World 24 Trade Center, and it measures the blackness of the 25 particles. And we have elemental carbon and organic Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 312 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 carbon. And although the hour of the day is not 3 quite clear here, you can see that there is a lot of 4 variability with time of day. It goes up at night, 5 and the concentrations, at least early in this 6 period of sampling, the levels jumped quite a bit at 7 night, and then once the sun came up in the morning, 8 mixing began, and the levels then dropped. And then 9 at night when inversions would build up, the winds 10 would drop down, we would see the levels go back up 11 every night. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I do remember 13 seeing your article in the times of, the article by 14 Kurt Johnson. 15 DR. THURSTON: Right. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Of October 26th, 17 and in fact I alluded to it, as to what caused the 18 smells to be worse at night. 19 DR. THURSTON: Right. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And it seemed to 21 have something to do with the, especially during the 22 fall, the lack of heat. 23 DR. THURSTON: Well, yes. That is one 24 of my concerns that I will get into at the end, but 25 that these conditions that cause a build-up of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 313 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 pollution at night and are most likely to happen in 3 November and December, and we're moving into that 4 period, so I'm concerned that the operations of the 5 World Trade Center recognize this potential higher 6 risk that could happen when there is low wind 7 speeds. 8 Now, you know, we had a forum on 9 October 18th at NYU, and at the time I said, well, 10 actually tonight, October 18th, was a night that I 11 thought might be higher than usual because it was a 12 clear night and low wind speed, so then when the EPA 13 web page a couple days later put the data on line, 14 actually that night was the highest night they 15 recorded at Pace University that month. And actually 16 tonight, I shouldn't come to these, although I don't 17 think it will be severe because it will move out 18 again, but tonight is another night that's going to 19 have low wind speeds and clear skies, and I wouldn't 20 be surprised if the levels jump somewhat at night 21 tonight. 22 And this is going to become more 23 recurrent in November and December, that we get 24 these clear nights, and historically, if you go back 25 to the battle days before the Clean Air Act, every Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 314 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 time we had a major pollution episode in New York 3 City, and this was documented well in the 4 literature, it was always right around Thanksgiving, 5 beginning of December. 6 Now, I'm not predicting that, because 7 there is a lot of other pollution we've cleaned up, 8 okay? So, we're able to see the World Trade Center 9 plume a lot more clearly because of all these other 10 sources like coal-burning have been eliminated. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You forget, you 12 don't mention it, but when you said soot, my 13 recollection with soot is when every building in the 14 City of New York had its own incinerator. 15 DR. THURSTON: You're right. We had 16 incinerators, and coal-burning was allowed. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Coal-burning in 18 certain areas still exist. 19 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Only schools I 20 think are the only -- 21 DR. TONIOLO: And hospitals. 22 DR. THURSTON: Hospitals? Yes, some 23 people have been exempted. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: One in my 25 district had a coal-burning facility. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 315 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. THURSTON: But -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Even though it's 4 maybe anthracite, hard coal, but it still causes a 5 problem. 6 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Soot, we used to 8 say, look at the building, soot is coming out, and 9 it used to get in everybody's homes, but since it's 10 been abandoned, now it's about 30 years I guess. 11 DR. THURSTON: So, you know, I think 12 there needs to be a link between the forecasting of 13 these stagnating anti-cyclones, that's when it's the 14 worst, when a high pressure cell comes in, fair 15 weather, and sits over New York, that we're going to 16 tend to see -- and actually, in that case it will 17 build up at night, and it won't be as dispersed. 18 Remember, the days are getting shorter, and when the 19 days are shorter, you are getting less heating and 20 less dispersal. 21 See how every day -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The hotter the 23 air is, the more dispersement? 24 DR. THURSTON: Well, the heating of 25 the sun heats the pavement, and what happens, if you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 316 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 get vertical it goes up, and then what happens is 3 that air is replaced by air from a loft that comes 4 down, clean air, a loft comes down and mixes it, so 5 you get a mixing during the day, it doesn't happen 6 at night, but as we move into November and December, 7 the days are much shorter and we get a lot less of 8 that and the afternoon mixing height comes down and 9 down and down, so we don't get that great vertical 10 pollution. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, this could 12 be predictable? 13 DR. THURSTON: It is. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And you were 15 here when I urged them to think of it in terms of 16 the ozone, the warning that they have, that we 17 should have somewhat similar warnings from the 18 people. So, people who are particularly sensitive to 19 this should be aware that these things may happen. 20 DR. THURSTON: DEC has the ability to 21 give these stagnation alerts, and I think they do do 22 that. I don't think there is any link between the 23 DDC forecast of stagnating air masses and higher air 24 pollution potential and the operations that are 25 going on at the World Trade Center. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 317 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That would be 3 something that you would recommend that they do? 4 DR. THURSTON: Yes, I would. There 5 should be somebody at the table saying this is going 6 to be, the next day or two is going to be really bad 7 dispersion days, and I think we ought to avoid 8 things, either stop operations for those days, if it 9 looks severe, or cut back -- I don't know the 10 details of what they're doing down there. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What I would 12 think is you would be able to warn the public, so 13 people who have sensitivity should be very -- 14 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Should maybe 16 avoid the areas or wear some sort of covering over 17 their mouth. 18 DR. THURSTON: Right. But an ounce of 19 prevention is worth a pound of cure. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Right. And who 21 would be in the best position to predict these 22 times? You obviously have some credentials in that 23 regard. 24 DR. THURSTON: Right. I did study 25 meteorology at MIT before I went for my doctorate at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 318 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the School of Public Health -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So you would 4 offer your services -- 5 DR. THURSTON: Well, sure, I would 6 help out. But there are people who are doing this 7 for a living. I'm doing it based on, you know, I 8 open up the New York Times and I look -- 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If you could get 10 me that information on who these people would be -- 11 it would be very important if you could give us that 12 information as to who these people and maybe we 13 could make recommendations to the Department of 14 Environmental Protection -- 15 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That this be 17 done. 18 DR. THURSTON: I can give you the name 19 of the person at DEP. It's alluding me at the 20 moment. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: All right. I 22 would appreciate it if you would give us that 23 information. 24 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Before I leave I 25 may be able to give it to you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 319 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 You know, the other thing I just want 3 to note is the overall trend, which is downward, and 4 that's continued into October, that the overall 5 levels, you know, compared to the first week of the 6 disaster, have been down. 7 But we do get these blips where it 8 goes up and I am concerned about the possibility of 9 a stagnating anti-cyclone taking the pollution, even 10 the lower levels of pollution we're getting out 11 there and building them up, so that we would get 12 high particulate matter levels, both, you know, 13 lower part of the city. 14 Now, we also monitor for PM 10 and PM 15 2.5, and they sort of show the same pattern, of 16 nighttime we get higher and daytime we get lower, 17 but the ambient standards that EPA set for the 24 18 hour were not exceeded, which is consistent with 19 what they're reporting. 20 But I do have concern about even a 21 few hours peaks, when they go up, and we've seen 22 that at the Pace University site, we've seen it at 23 our site at Hunter College in the days following, 24 so, because of recent literature that's been 25 published showing that people with cardiac disease Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 320 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 could be at significantly more risk from just a few 3 hours, which would be within the EPA standard for 24 4 hours, but because the way this plume worked, it 5 kind of meanders around, it can really wallop one 6 place for a few hours and then it sort of drifts 7 away, you know, it meanders at night on these very 8 clear nights, not every night. And, so, 9 fortunately, there aren't too many people out at 10 night to breathe this, but it could be taken into 11 their ventilation systems. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We're a 24-hour 13 city. 14 DR. THURSTON: Yes, I know. It's one 15 of the things that makes it great. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Dallas at night 17 you don't see anybody. It's amazing. So, I think 18 people should be informed of what's happening 19 without panicking people, they should know what's 20 going on. 21 Now we have this knowledge, we should 22 let this be made public. 23 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Well, I have 24 mentioned it at public forums, that, you know, 25 people -- for example, some people were opening Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 321 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 their windows at night, and I said, no, actually 3 what you want to do is close them at night and then 4 open them during the day when the pollution levels 5 drop. You know, common sense. A lot of public health 6 is common sense. Avoid the exposures, if you can. 7 I'm almost done. So, basically, the 8 conclusion, you know, our data is largely consistent 9 with what the EPA has reported. Of course, we don't 10 have the extensive -- we haven't looked at all of 11 the variables that they've looked at, but as I said 12 earlier, there are short-term peaks of a few hours 13 at night, they could be of significance to 14 especially susceptible populations, and peaks tend 15 to be at night when the winds are low, suggesting 16 that we should take action on such nights and it may 17 extend actually into the day, if we get one of these 18 stagnating anti-cyclones over a number of days that 19 just sits over us. 20 High pressure cells. Anti-cyclones, 21 I'm sorry. It's a high-pressure system, as opposed 22 to a low-pressure system that has rain associated 23 with -- the anti-cyclone, the high-pressure cells 24 are where we get all the fair weather. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Cyclones because Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 322 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of the nature -- 3 DR. THURSTON: The direction that the 4 air is flowing in. It circulates the opposite 5 direction of a cyclone, so it's called an 6 anti-cyclone. Hey, I didn't make it up. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: No, these are 8 scientific terms, I understand. 9 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We have cyclones 11 in the East Coast. 12 DR. THURSTON: Goodness, yes. Not too 13 many. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They have them 15 in the Orient, I guess. 16 DR. THURSTON: Yes, that's right. 17 That's a term they use over there. 18 So, I think that's my testimony. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I thank you very 20 much. I am pleased you gave me the information I 21 asked for. 22 DR. THURSTON: Oh, thank you for the 23 opportunity to share this information with you. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sir? 25 DR. KINNEY: I'll make a few more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 323 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 comments. My name is Patrick Kinney. I'm an 3 Associate Professor at the Columbia School of Public 4 Health in the Division of Environmental Health 5 Sciences. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Where is your 7 office located? 8 DR. KINNEY: Up at 168th Street. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 10 DR. KINNEY: At Columbia Medical -- I 11 think I have seen you at some community forums, yes. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: As you know, I 13 do a lot of work for Columbia. 14 DR. KINNEY: Yes. And I appreciate the 15 opportunity. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm familiar 17 with your former dean. 18 DR. KINNEY: Okay. And I know you know 19 some of my colleagues there. 20 I appreciate the opportunity to come 21 down here and talk a little bit about the health 22 impacts of the air quality related to the World 23 Trade Center. 24 Most of the points that I was 25 planning to make have already been made, and I agree Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 324 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 with most everything that's been said today. I think 3 that it's important to distinguish between the risk 4 faced by the Occupational, the people working at 5 ground zero, this point has been made already, it's 6 an important distinction to be made between the risk 7 faced by the workers and those in the general 8 public. 9 And I want to direct my comments to 10 the impacts, potential impacts on general public. 11 You know, a great deal of air 12 monitoring has been carried out, and we heard a lot 13 about that today, most of it by governmental 14 agencies, some of it by universities which we heard 15 a little bit about. And the good news -- 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I meant to ask 17 you, in the monitoring you people have done, Mr. 18 Thurston, or Dr. Thurston, has that been supplied to 19 EPA? Are they aware of this monitoring? 20 DR. THURSTON: They're aware of it. We 21 haven't really -- and I actually did get a request 22 from the EPA, who's a member who is trying to do 23 risk assessment associated with this, that we share 24 the data and we said we're willing. But we haven't 25 directly transferred all the data over to them. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 325 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think it would 3 be important to -- 4 DR. THURSTON: We have shared it with 5 NIHS. 6 What? 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think it would 8 be important that they have the benefit of that 9 data. 10 DR. THURSTON: Yes. Well, we're not 11 done analyzing the samples. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I'd be happy 13 to work to expedite -- 14 DR. THURSTON: We're doing trace 15 element analysis of the samples, the air samples, 16 and that should start this week. Basically what 17 we've done, we don't have a lot of resources for 18 this, we're using what we've got around and using 19 our own -- 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Barry Shor is 21 back there from EPA, is somebody that I've worked 22 with for years, and I'm sure if you would speak to 23 him after, and, Barry, you speak to Dr. Thurston, 24 and perhaps -- 25 DR. THURSTON: Yes, we would be glad Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 326 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to. I think because we started so early, there 3 really wasn't -- the only monitor that I know of 4 that was really right around here was the one on top 5 of the World Trade Center, which obviously was not 6 giving us any data, and, so -- when we set up here, 7 I think the first week or so, we have some fairly 8 unique data, those filter samples are very helpful. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm sure there 10 is value to it, and I appreciate it. And I'm sure 11 Barry would work with you. 12 DR. THURSTON: Yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. Sorry 14 for the interruption. I don't want to lose that 15 important subject. 16 DR. KINNEY: I think that's one of the 17 points I wanted to make later was that there is a 18 lot of monitoring that's been going on by University 19 groups. NYU has done a lot of it. 20 We have been working, Columbia has 21 been working as well, as John's Hopkins University 22 sent people up here to collect data. And, so, that 23 monitoring data is, I think in general you could 24 characterize it as being more, possibly more sort of 25 research-based. We tend to be trying to collect more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 327 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 comprehensive long-term samples than some of the 3 other efforts. But we're also finding, as George 4 said, because the University monitoring is being 5 done sort of in our spare time and with spare 6 resources, the turn-around time has been much, I 7 think not as desirable as some of the governmental 8 agency data. So, you know, bear with us, but we're 9 going to be producing some interesting data as time 10 goes on. 11 The good news from the monitoring 12 that we've seen, from both universities and the 13 government agencies, is that there has been no 14 indication from these data that air pollution is 15 reaching levels that would be associated with 16 serious health effects over the long term. 17 On the other hand, we continue to 18 hear complaints from the general public, who are 19 working, going to school, living in the area, about 20 respiratory irritation, and I think one of the 21 important things that we begin to do is sort of try 22 to understand how to make sense of those two facts. 23 On the one hand, the air data are not 24 showing levels that would concern us from a health 25 perspective. On the other hand, we're getting lots Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 328 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of reports of respiratory complaints. 3 So, I think today has actually 4 illuminated that issue quite a lot. I think from a 5 scientific perspective what we think is the 6 explanation, is that respiratory irritation that 7 people are experiencing is related to large 8 particles, which are -- the respiratory system is 9 very good at capturing in the upper, in the nose and 10 in the throat, unfortunately those particles in some 11 cases are very irritating, containing very alkaline 12 particles, as George said, and also fiberglass, 13 which is a very irritating substance. So, people are 14 going to continue to experience those upper 15 respiratory problems. 16 And on the other hand, from a 17 long-term perspective, we don't see those exposures 18 as being related to serious health outcomes over the 19 longrun. So, it's sort of a good news, bad news 20 situation. In the short run we're going to, you 21 know, people are going to have to continue to deal 22 with the respiratory irritation. I think that it's 23 an area -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How long do you 25 think we will have to deal with this? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 329 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. KINNEY: As long as the fires and 3 the dust continue to be generated from the site. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And which could 5 go on for a good long time. 6 DR. KINNEY: It appears that that's 7 the case. I don't really have any real good ideas 8 how long it's going to take, to either put out the 9 fires or to finish the demolition work. But as long 10 as those are going on, the potential exists. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It will probably 12 speed the recovery situation, because the rescue 13 aspect is over now. 14 DR. KINNEY: Yes. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And still they 16 want to be sensitive because they want to recover 17 what they can recover. 18 DR. KINNEY: Sure. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: For the purposes 20 of the families. 21 DR. KINNEY: Sure. Right. 22 I think that some of the comments, 23 just to go off on that point for a second, some of 24 the suggestions that were made earlier about trying 25 to do the best job we can to contain the dust in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 330 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 demolition in the trucking in the transport -- 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Watering down. 4 DR. KINNEY: Watering down. You know, 5 we should be using best possible practices for that, 6 and if we're not quite there yet, we should 7 encourage us getting there as quickly as possible. 8 That will help a lot. That will really help a lot to 9 reduce the ongoing irritation that's occurring. 10 The fire I think is a more difficult 11 problem, but I think it appeared from George's data 12 that there is a gradual trend towards lower 13 concentrations, although it goes up and down from 14 day-to-day. 15 I'm not sure if that represents the 16 diminishing of the fire over time, maybe that's the 17 case or it may be some other factor. You know, 18 hopefully the fire will gradually go out, and so we 19 can expect that to improve over time. 20 So, I think that I generally agree 21 with everything that George said, and I would point 22 out that from the environmental health perspective 23 we don't see concerns right now about any long-term 24 health impacts for the general public. 25 However, for the workers that are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 331 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 being exposed to higher levels, it really continues 3 to be very important that they protect themselves 4 from a respiratory perspective, and that should 5 continue to be encouraged, as has been said by 6 others today. 7 And I think that the final thing I 8 will say is, going back to a point that was made 9 earlier about the diesel traffic, I think, you know, 10 we do know that diesel vehicles, as you know, 11 produce a lot of soot, and that's been related to 12 not only exacerbation of asthma, but also risk of 13 cancer, lung cancer forming. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They're also in 15 the smaller particles. 16 DR. KINNEY: They're very tiny 17 particles. They penetrate deeply into the lungs and 18 they contain a lot of toxic compounds. 19 So, you know, it's probably something 20 that wasn't thought about too much in the early 21 period of the recovery effort, but now that we have 22 a chance to take stock, we ought to be thinking 23 about some ways to minimize those exposures, and the 24 suggestion made earlier about looking at what was 25 done in Boston with the "big dig" I think is a good Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 332 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 idea. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What was the big 4 dig? Digging out a tunnel, or what was that all 5 about? 6 DR. KINNEY: George may be able to 7 explain this better. Well, they're doing a major 8 effort to submerge the highway that goes north/south 9 through Boston, so they've been digging up the 10 entire center of Boston and digging a whole to merge 11 this new highway, which is a very -- maybe one of 12 the largest public works projects ever. And that's 13 been going on for a number of years and it's costing 14 billions and billions of dollars. 15 DR. THURSTON: The highway running 16 through Boston -- we both went to school there -- 17 was basically dividing the city to the north and 18 other parts of the city, and by they're taking that 19 out and putting it underground, that will sort of 20 unify the city again. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's 22 interesting. It reminds me of the things I read 23 about, about the power broker, Robert Moses, and 24 what he wanted to do. He wanted to buy the city. 25 DR. KINNEY: So thanks for the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 333 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 opportunity to come down and talk. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We appreciate 4 it. I always appreciate your school, and how 5 important it is to us. 6 DR. KINNEY: Thanks very much. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Sir. 8 DR. TONIOLO: Back to NYU, I'm Paolo 9 Toniolo. I am Professor of Epidemiology at New York 10 University School of Medicine, and I'm also the 11 Associate Director for Population Science at the NYU 12 Cancer Institute. 13 I'm also a member of the Planning 14 Committee of the School's Institute for Urban and 15 Global Health, which was charged by the Dean of New 16 York University School of Medicine to coordinate all 17 the health research activities connected with the 18 World Trade Center disaster. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: This was a group 20 that was just organized for the purposes of dealing 21 with the World Trade Center situation? 22 DR. TONIOLO: No. This is an existing 23 component of the School of Medicine -- 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Not only part of 25 the issues. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 334 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. TONIOLO:-- And this was charged, 3 and was the Institute that now has been charged by 4 the Dean to take care of understanding what the 5 health issues are. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Knowing the 7 reputation of your medical school, I think it's a 8 very, very good suggestion. 9 DR. TONIOLO: I appreciate it. 10 Here with us is Jo Widerhorn, and she 11 is the Institute Deputy Director, and also the 12 Director of Operations. 13 We have heard before and throughout 14 the morning some reassuring news about exposures, 15 and I take that as an important fact; nevertheless, 16 I think one part is missing, and this part is 17 evidence that there are really no health effects. 18 We are all particularly concerned, as 19 an institution in the area we're particularly 20 concerned about the people living in the area, 21 people who are there 24 hours a day, and includes 22 vulnerable groups. 23 So, I really would like to focus on 24 that and focus, not only on exposure but also on 25 health effects, this is the thrust of what I would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 335 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 like to say. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: When you say the 4 area, how would you delineate the physical area 5 where you are concerned? 6 DR. TONIOLO: Well, of course the area 7 of interest goes concentrically around the World 8 Trade Center site, but I would say of our concern is 9 the entire part of South Manhattan, Lower Manhattan. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are you talking 11 about the Lower East Side as well? 12 DR. TONIOLO: Lower East Side, parts 13 of the Lower East Side, as well. Certainly they were 14 covered by the plume of the smoke. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The Tribecca 16 area seems to be the area most affected, and 17 includes where we are right now. 18 DR. TONIOLO: Right. 19 Jo Wiederhorn wants to say something. 20 MS. WIEDERHORN: Right, but I can't 21 get the microphone to -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's working. I 23 can hear you. 24 MS. WIEDERHORN: Oh. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Just talk into Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 336 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the mic, bring it closer to you. 3 MS. WIEDERHORN: The area -- 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: No, it's not on. 5 MS. WIEDERHORN: The areas that we're 6 looking at are Battery Park City, Tribecca, Lower 7 East Side and the two bridges area, basically all of 8 Lower Manhattan. If you look at the back of the 9 testimony, there are maps that were included with 10 it. We had to do it on two maps because we had a 11 problem with the actual mapping of the site, but 12 you'll notice those on the maps are the health care 13 clinics that are affiliated with NYU, and those are 14 the clinics from which we are going to do some of 15 our work. 16 We pinpointed it on the map so that 17 you could see that we have a strong basis in Lower 18 Manhattan, that's really where most of our work has 19 been done through the School of Medicine. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. 21 DR. TONIOLO: I must add also that the 22 disaster is an unprecedented event which thousands 23 of tons of pulverized concrete, plastics, metals, 24 organic compounds, fuel and other chemicals were 25 released into the air, and most of this enormous Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 337 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 cloud of dust settle everywhere in the area and 3 eventually seep into homes, schools and workplaces. 4 The clean-up operations at ground 5 zero with concomitant fires result in continuous 6 release of more pollutants in the local environment. 7 Under these circumstances, which are very serious, 8 it seems to me and to us, unwise to argue that 9 people exposed to these fumes, dust and particles 10 may be at no risk at all for adverse health effects. 11 On the contrary, and given the 12 uniqueness of the circumstances, it seems prudent to 13 assume that we operate in the presence of the 14 potential for substantial and extensive health 15 risks. I underscore the term potential. We don't 16 know if there is any health risk effectively, but we 17 have to operate under that assumption. 18 Not only we must assume that health 19 risks are potentially present, but also we must act 20 quickly to fill the gap, the knowledge gap, before 21 it is too late to understand the situation and to 22 act accordingly. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: To put this into 24 perspective, something like this has never happened 25 before. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 338 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. TONIOLO: Something like this has 3 never happened before -- 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: To put it into 5 terms, but this is sort of like a learning 6 experience. As horrible as it is, it is a learning 7 experience. 8 DR. TONIOLO: Yes. 9 And this is why I think it is much 10 better to operate under the assumption that there 11 may be substantial risks. And this should guide our 12 actions. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And should not 14 only be studied by people in the City, but should be 15 studied by other people as well. If this is a fact 16 of life, if terrorism is a fact of life. 17 DR. TONIOLO: Absolutely. And we 18 shouldn't -- I absolutely agree. We have to learn 19 from the possibility that something like this 20 happens in the future. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: As horrible as 22 it is, we have in the past learned from horrible 23 experiences, and this is one of those horrible 24 experiences. 25 DR. TONIOLO: I agree. And I think we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 339 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 have an obligation to us, the community, which we 3 are part, to collect, and take responsibility to 4 develop programs, services, interventions, 5 addressing the possibility that health risks are in 6 the present. 7 It is important to collect data, 8 health risk data for the workers who are exposed to 9 very high levels of exposure or potential exposure, 10 and likewise we must not forget the individuals and 11 families who reside in the neighborhoods just blocks 12 from the disaster, who are confronted with the daily 13 and ongoing struggle of living under potentially 14 dangerous health conditions, and tremendous 15 uncertainties about the present and the future. 16 Unlike the rescue workers, local 17 residents include among them large numbers of 18 particularly vulnerable individuals, such as 19 children, pregnant women, and the elderly. 20 And, so, this is why it is very 21 important for us to establish conditions by which we 22 start collecting information very quickly. And we 23 can rely in doing that on our large network of 24 hospitals, health facilities, obligated units 25 throughout the area. This is our strength as an Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 340 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 institution. Not only do we have hospitals in the 3 area that we can rely on or near the area but we 4 have a whole network of institutions and centers 5 that are working with us to this effect. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That would 7 include affiliated private physicians as well? 8 DR. TONIOLO: As well that, but also 9 we are working with a lot of the community 10 organizations that are administering health care. 11 For example, we are working with 12 organizations like the Chinese Community Partnership 13 for Health, the Chinatown Health Clinic, the Chinese 14 Language Health Services/Health Education referral 15 Hotline and so on, and these are just some of the 16 structures we rely on. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If I could 18 interrupt here? I think this is so important. This 19 is what I was alluding to before when I said that we 20 have to gather up the information of all of the 21 medical institutions as to the effect that this is 22 having so that we can find out -- we're dealing with 23 various standards and tests on something that we 24 have never had happen before, so it may be that the 25 people, the PEL may be one standard and they say, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 341 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 well, nothing can be wrong because the PEL doesn't 3 apply here, or the standard is higher than the PEL, 4 and, yet, we're having people getting harmed by this 5 and it may turn out that the PEL is wrong, and the 6 only way you can prove that would be by actually 7 having people who have been affected by it in 8 sufficient numbers to say that the risk is much 9 greater than they originally thought, of the 10 exposure. 11 DR. TONIOLO: This is absolutely 12 correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You seem to be a 14 prime source that would gather that type of 15 information. 16 DR. TONIOLO: Absolutely. And so far 17 we have been trying to set the stage to conduct and 18 collect these observations, which is quite 19 complicated because we're not only considering 20 patients who attend clinics, our clinics or other 21 institutions clinics, but we have to really rely on 22 the general population because some inferences may 23 be possible only if we include general population 24 residents and look at their complaints, look at the 25 possible effects and sometimes if exposure levels Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 342 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 are relatively minor as we have been told throughout 3 the day, then the challenge is even harder because 4 we have to look at small changes, and it is 5 something that we owe the community, and to look at 6 relatively minor changes, and possibilities that 7 there is, for example, a tendency for blood lead 8 levels in children to go up, well, we have to 9 understanding now, and we have to look at possible 10 trends to repeat testing right now and see how it 11 goes in the future. If we know, for example, there 12 is such lead levels that are on the increase, then 13 we'll be able to alert authorities and to make 14 decisions and to decide on public health ground and 15 decide on clinical grounds, as to what to do. But we 16 have to set up the stage to have such observations 17 and be able to decide at some time in the future. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: When it comes to 19 lead, lead is already in a division of the 20 Department of Health for the City of New York, there 21 also is a Division of Lead Poisoning. 22 DR. TONIOLO: Yes, this is true. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: As a result of 24 the lead legislation that some of us have been 25 fighting on, and myself since 1982. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 343 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DR. TONIOLO: Right. But we have to 3 set up the circumstances for that specific set of 4 data that are collected to address the particular 5 issues of this particular accident. That means that 6 we have to have children who are residing at 7 different distances from ground zero and to test 8 repeatedly. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Are you familiar 10 with Dr. Rose in Montifiore Hospital? 11 DR. TONIOLO: Yes. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, he's 13 someone I worked with. 14 DR. TONIOLO: Right. We know that 15 there is a background information, there is 16 background information because children are being 17 tested. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's important. 19 We build on that. 20 DR. TONIOLO: And we refer to those 21 values, and we can use them as our reference and see 22 what goes on in children who are exposed or residing 23 in different areas. This is our constituency, this 24 is the children we have to test and to look. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The same thing Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 344 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 is true of children who have asthmatic conditions. 3 DR. TONIOLO: That's true for 4 everybody who is at risk for asthmatic conditions or 5 other respiratory symptoms, and this is why we are 6 planning to address at least three set of problems. 7 One as I described is we have to look at children 8 who may be exposed to increasing or changing levels 9 of lead, and that's straight forward. We have to do 10 it and we have to find the resources to do that 11 quickly and to continue this monitoring, specific 12 monitoring in the future. 13 Second, we have to look at 14 respiratory problems in the general population, and 15 this is the opportunity to gather a large number of 16 residents throughout the area to collect 17 information, to look at the history of exposure, to 18 look at their complaints and to follow them in time, 19 to see what happens in a month, in the years to 20 come. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is there money 22 for this? 23 DR. TONIOLO: No, there is no money 24 for that. But our responsibility is to identify and 25 to propose something. We are here to actually Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 345 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 propose something and to see what we have in mind, 3 and we have to find the money. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: May I offer you 5 whatever help I can possibly give you, because I 6 agree with you 100 percent, and I think what you're 7 doing is extremely valuable and I would very much 8 like to be part of what you're doing and try to help 9 you get the funds that are necessary. 10 DR. TONIOLO: I'm glad to hear that, 11 and I find your words very assuring. 12 And the third aspect that I would 13 like to point out, dioxin and other compounds have 14 been mentioned, and I agree that levels of dioxin in 15 specific samples may be low, and levels of heavy 16 metals may be low, but we really are not sure to 17 what exactly individual people living in the area 18 may be exposed in real life. 19 So, I think it is also time to set up 20 the stage to collect such information, which means 21 dioxin that is actually inside the bodies of 22 individuals, it is linked to their lipid, their fat, 23 or metals in their system, in their bones, and so, 24 and other compounds of interest. 25 We have to set it up, we have to set Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 346 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 it up now and to be able in the next few months to 3 monitor if there are any changes, and if there are 4 any operations in these parameters. 5 Perhaps levels of dioxin and other 6 metals are low now, may not be the case after the 7 winter in January or in February. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: How do you 9 determine whether the -- I know how you determine 10 lead in the children, how do you determine other 11 metals in children? 12 DR. TONIOLO: Mostly dioxins can be 13 measured quite reliably, there are some drawbacks 14 that these are toxic at very low levels, so you need 15 quite a large volume of blood, for example, to 16 measure them, and you need a laboratory that is 17 capable to do that and to provide the reassurance 18 that what they are measuring is exactly what it is 19 intended to. 20 CDC has such a laboratory and they 21 will be happy to work with us on that. The other 22 drawback is it costs quite a lot to do such 23 analysis. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Do they still 25 use the x-rays, the lead? I've seen x-rays where you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 347 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 actually see the lead in the bones. 3 DR. TONIOLO: Yes. This can be done. 4 This is not what we have in mind at this stage to 5 see -- 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's an 7 extreme case. 8 DR. TONIOLO: Right. An extreme cases, 9 in clinical cases you can also do that. 10 So, what I wanted to say are, these 11 are three examples of monitoring that can be done, 12 lead in children, respiratory problems in adults, 13 and this is the time to create such cohorts of 14 adults who can be followed up over time, and also to 15 monitor potential exposure to adults and children 16 and everybody in the area to compounds that are 17 potentially dangerous and may cause immune 18 deficiency or hormonal alterations, cardiovascular 19 diseases and cancer. And this we have to set up 20 quickly and move as fast as possible so that we will 21 have this information and will provide this 22 information to the public for -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You mentioned 24 something that interests me, and that is the fact 25 that we have people, a huge population in the City, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 348 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of people who have deficient immunization, people 3 with HIV, people who which we know it attacks the 4 immunity systems, so they're particularly 5 vulnerable. 6 DR. TONIOLO: You are absolutely 7 correct. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And we don't 9 know whether these levels that they're talking about 10 are with people with normal immunization systems. It 11 may be with people with abnormal immunization 12 systems is something that we have to look out for. 13 DR. TONIOLO: There are definitely a 14 large number of people who may be particularly 15 susceptible to the effects of exposure. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Besides children 17 and elder people. 18 DR. TONIOLO: Absolutely. 19 There are those that we mentioned and 20 those you are mentioning right now and I agree, and 21 we don't know, on a general level we don't know 22 what's out there, and this is why we cannot reach 23 conclusions based on exposure assessment only on 24 ambient samples or even indoor samples, we have to 25 do human studies. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 349 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I believe that's 3 true. 4 DR. TONIOLO: And we have to do them 5 right now. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's the best 7 way to prove the causal connection. 8 DR. TONIOLO: Absolutely. That's the 9 only ultimate way. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: There are 11 statistics of a lot of people who live in a certain 12 area who were exposed at a certain time, and they 13 come up with similar type of symptoms. 14 DR. TONIOLO: Yes. 15 Jo Wiederhorn would like to add 16 something. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please. I would 18 appreciate it. 19 MS. WIEDERHORN: I just wanted to say 20 real briefly that one of the things that we're 21 stressing and looking at these three particular 22 areas is we really want to stress the community 23 aspect of it, and we want to stress how part of the 24 reason why we're focusing on these three areas is 25 because of forums that we've done, and because of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 350 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 community -- what is it? 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Outreach? 4 MS. WIEDERHORN: Outreach, that we've 5 done, and we've heard from the people in Lower 6 Manhattan what their concerns are. And, frankly, 7 when we had first started developing these three 8 proposals, we had not considered the dioxin 9 proposal. However, after having the forum on October 10 18th, the NYU held a forum that Dr. Thurston alluded 11 to previously, one of the main concerns that came 12 out of that meeting was dioxin. And so we sat down 13 after that and talked about what it was that we 14 could do in order to look at the community's concern 15 there as well. 16 So, I think that we've also worked 17 with you, the Institute has worked with the City 18 Council in the past, where we've gotten a grant from 19 the City Council to look at some of the issues with 20 immigrants in New York City, and as part of that we 21 actually funded Dr. Thurston for testing air 22 particulate levels in children, in Hispanic children 23 in the South Bronx. 24 So, I think that, you know, I'm here 25 to sort of give to you reassurance that what we're Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 351 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 doing is not, we're not coming in as the University 3 saying, well, this is what we're going to study in 4 Lower Manhattan, because we feel we need to. I think 5 there is a lot of organizations and agencies that 6 are doing that because there are some very clear 7 things that need to be studied. 8 What we're saying is we're coming 9 into Lower Manhattan, and we're going to community 10 meetings, we're presenting at community forums, 11 we're talking with community groups, tenants 12 organizations, and we're asking them what it is that 13 they feel that they need. And we're doing this, 14 we're having translators, we're doing it in Chinese, 15 Spanish, English, so I wanted to put that out there. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think that 17 would be under the broad category of being a good 18 neighbor. 19 MS. WIEDERHORN: Exactly. That is 20 exactly what we're trying to do. 21 DR. TONIOLO: Well, we happen to be 22 part of the Lower Manhattan community as an 23 institution, so we feel very strongly about that. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, I'm very 25 lucky because I have an institution the same way up Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 352 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in Northern Manhattan where I represent, Columbia 3 Presbyterian Hospital and the public health 4 hospital. 5 MS. WIEDERHORN: Right. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We found them to 7 be similarly inclined in our community. 8 MS. WIEDERHORN: Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's why I can 10 appreciate what you're doing. 11 MS. WIEDERHORN: Thank you. 12 DR. TONIOLO: So, thank you. We look 13 forward to continuing to work with you. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I look forward 15 to working with you, and looking and watching very 16 carefully the work that you are doing. As I said, if 17 I can be of any help, let me know. 18 DR. TONIOLO: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you. Thank 20 all of you for coming. 21 DR. THURSTON: I do have the name of 22 the person at the DEC that does the weather 23 forecasts, pollution alerts. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Okay. 25 DR. THURSTON: And that's Dr. Taylor, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 353 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 and I've got his e-mail address here I can give to 3 you. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: If you would 5 give that to me, I would appreciate it. 6 DR. THURSTON: I've got it right here. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Oh, good. 8 Thank you very much. 9 DR. THURSTON: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I appreciate 11 your testimony. 12 Next we are going to hear from Dr. 13 Robert Jaffe, Mark Ameruso and Alan Gerson. Is Alan 14 Gerson still here? 15 MR. GERSON: Yes. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Where is Alan? 17 Alan, welcome. 18 Alan, why don't you start out first 19 and identify yourself. I certainly know who you are. 20 Press the button. You'll get used to 21 it. A learning experience for you. 22 MR. GERSON: It sure is. Well, thank 23 you. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's a privilege 25 to have you here before us. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 354 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. GERSON: Well, it's a privilege to 3 be in your company, sir. 4 I have written testimony which I'll 5 submit and I will condense a little bit of my 6 remarks. 7 For the record, my name is Alan J. 8 Gerson, and I am the Democratic Party's nominee for 9 the City Council from the 1st District. We are the 10 district of ground zero. 11 Mr. Chair, before I proceed, let me 12 take this opportunity on behalf of our community to 13 thank you for holding this hearing. Let me also add 14 our appreciation and gratitude to you personally, 15 for all of your great leadership and outstanding 16 work on behalf of a better City and a better 17 environment over the years. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 19 much. 20 MR. GERSON: And speaking for myself 21 and I come from a very grateful community, we will 22 need and expect your continued leadership and 23 thoughtfulness and activism as the City rebuilds. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You will have 25 it. You will have it as I graduate to a higher Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 355 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 official status called citizen. 3 MR. GERSON: That is the highest 4 status, I believe. Thank you. 5 The residents and workers of the 1st 6 Council District directly witnessed on September 7 11th absolute evil and terrible tragedy. We have, 8 however, in the aftermath been inspired by countless 9 examples of courage and compassion by our rescue 10 workers, scores of volunteers and our neighbors. 11 We have been comforted by the 12 fellowship we found in each other and our community 13 and we are determined to rebuild and recreate a 14 downtown that is more livable for residents and more 15 economically vibrant than ever before. 16 But we recognize that the first step 17 to rebuilding must be to assure the health and 18 safety of all, including and starting with the 19 safety of the air we breathe. 20 I'm here to tell you, Mr. Chair, that 21 unfortunately the residents of downtown have not 22 received the assurance as to our current and future 23 environmental health and safety, and we feel certain 24 that our City can and must do a better job to clean 25 up the downtown environment and prevent further Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 356 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 contamination. 3 I personally have spent countless 4 hours over the past weeks attending numerous tenant 5 and neighborhood association emergency meetings. The 6 level of concern, complaints and confusion has 7 reached unacceptable and indeed universal 8 proportions. 9 Let me just add, and I'll skip around 10 here, but we have in fact seen City government 11 operate at its very best in its response to the 12 ground zero emergency. We've seen our Mayor and our 13 Administration in all levels of City government rise 14 admirably and indeed heroically to meet an 15 unprecedented disaster. 16 What we feel we need now is to apply 17 the same level of coordination and concentration and 18 priority to the clean up and to the assurance of 19 environmental safety in the residential area 20 surrounding ground zero. 21 Now, specifically I, and I also have 22 testimony I am submitting on behalf of Community 23 Board 1, the Chair Madeline Wills is in Washington 24 leading a lobbying effort, but we and -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I can attest to, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 357 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 by the way, her activism on the issue, because I 3 have been in communication, as a matter of fact, she 4 is the person who is giving me addresses needed to 5 be inspected which I transmitted to the Department 6 of Environmental Protection. 7 MR. GERSON: Well, she has been out 8 front. 9 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: She certainly 10 has. 11 MR. GERSON: She certainly has. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Please give her 13 my compliments and my thanks. 14 MR. GERSON: I will do that. 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I remember 16 meeting with her. 17 MR. GERSON: We are lucky to have her 18 as Chair of our Community Board, and I will 19 certainly reiterate your concurrence in that. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I certainly do. 21 MR. GERSON: Mr. Mark Ameruso, to my 22 right, is a member of the Board, and he, too, has 23 been a volunteer at ground zero, and he's also been 24 a leader in community efforts to rally the 25 community. You will be hearing from him. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 358 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Terrific. 3 MR. GERSON: But we feel, and Madeline 4 and I and the community board agree that it's time 5 to, the City needs to establish a special 6 environmental clean up and control agency to oversee 7 the job. We feel the agency should consist of a 8 panel of experts to set the standards, monitoring 9 and clean up and dust suppression, including 10 building reoccupation or evacuation, as the case may 11 be, an independent panel, I should say, and an 12 executive manager reporting to the Mayor to oversee 13 and enforce those standards. 14 We feel that in the absence of such 15 an agency, there is too much inconsistency, there 16 are too many omissions, and the job will not be 17 done. 18 The City has issued numerous 19 guidelines, but it's like the Emperor has new 20 clothes, without the oversight these guidelines, I 21 could tell you, are not being followed. 22 Now, I could cite numerous examples, 23 and I'll skip around here. I mean, HEPA vacuum 24 cleaners -- and by the way, my testimony is going to 25 focus on the clean-up of the dust and debris which Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 359 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 has landed in apartments, in public areas, in 3 balconies, roofs, because the experts we have 4 retained have told us this clean up is all 5 important, because in the absence of a thorough 6 clean-up, the dust will be kicked up in clouds that 7 people, but especially children, can breathe in in 8 unacceptable levels, and it could wind up being 9 recycled in building systems. So, it's not just a 10 one-shot deal. It can wind up through the air 11 conditioning ducts or whatever building systems are 12 at a particular building. 13 So, this is what the experts are 14 telling us. But yet, we have situations, we are told 15 to use HEPA vacuum cleaners, an 85-year-old resident 16 of South Bridge came up to me in despair, what is a 17 HEPA vacuum cleaner? How do I get it? I mean, I 18 never heard of a HEPA whatever you call it. And she 19 didn't know who to turn to. And she's not alone. 20 There are buildings where there is a distrust 21 between management and tenants, where tenants feel 22 that the managers, the building owners are rushing 23 the clean-up, not doing the public areas, the ducts, 24 the vents thoroughly, because they want to expedite 25 reoccupation. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 360 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 There are other buildings, especially 3 the smaller buildings, especially the tenement 4 walk-up buildings where they can't afford the 5 equipment. There are small buildings or condos where 6 people don't have the -- they're just confused and 7 there is no one-stop shopping, and there is no 8 oversight. We also have abandoned apartments, people 9 have just packed up and left, abandoned buildings, 10 and they're not being cleaned because no legal 11 agency is gaining access to it. And if their window 12 is open and if there is wind coming up from the door 13 or from the roof across from an abandoned building, 14 then the whole surrounding area -- 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Is Gateway in 16 that area? 17 MR. GERSON: Gateway is in that area. 18 And this proposal has a specific endorsement of 19 Gateway, of South Bridge. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I know people 21 who are living in Gateway, nobody is living there 22 now. 23 MR. GERSON: Well, some buildings are 24 beginning to be -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Not Gateway. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 361 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. GERSON: Some in Gateway. I 3 believe a couple of the far buildings are being 4 partially reoccupied. But you have this situation in 5 and around Gateway. 6 The other area -- so what we need is 7 the application of COMPSTAT, of the strong public 8 management of the City, which we have seen this City 9 is capable of. We need a building-by-building, 10 block-by-block map and certification that it's being 11 done properly, and just like we used this in 12 block-by-block approach to fight crime, we need to 13 use it to fight and eliminate poison in our midst, 14 because otherwise it is just not going to get done. 15 And where a building doesn't have the financial 16 resources to do it, or it's not doing it properly, 17 we need the agency then to step in to retain the 18 contractor -- 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: One of the 20 questions I had is -- 21 MR. GERSON: Yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: -- When you have 23 a situation like this where a building has been 24 subject to the results of the World Trade Center 25 disaster, aren't insurance policies that the owners Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 362 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 have going to cover some of this problem? 3 MR. GERSON: Absolutely. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I know there is 5 an insurance policy that covers a fire, but I don't 6 know whether or not -- I'm a lawyer but I'm not 7 familiar with these policies. It seems to me, and 8 some of these buildings you are talking about are 9 buildings which are extremely valuable, high rent 10 rolls, and it would seem to me that these insurance 11 companies should go in and be able to do this, pay 12 for this work to be done. 13 MR. GERSON: I agree with you. I think 14 what needs to be done, someone needs to convene the 15 insurance companies, the property owners. We've done 16 this in other mass litigation situations and there 17 needs to be kind of a global -- because there is a 18 gray area. Is this a natural disaster? I mean, does 19 an act of war, which the President said this was, 20 fall without insurance? There's a lot of gray area. 21 I would argue that it should be covered, but some of 22 the insurance companies may have different -- 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It would seem to 24 me that the first thing that has to be done is place 25 violations on these buildings, either by the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 363 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Department of Health or the Department of 3 Environmental Protection, or even in some cases 4 perhaps even the Department of Buildings. And once 5 that happens, that starts the ball rolling. But 6 you've got to be able to call in these agencies, 7 they get their inspectors in there to issue these 8 violations, you've got to get cooperation. 9 I think that's important to be done 10 and that is actually done almost on a 11 building-by-building basis, where you have tenant 12 meetings in these buildings, and have people in and 13 let them call in their complaints and make their 14 apartments available for inspection. 15 MR. GERSON: I think that's an 16 excellent idea, and I'll bring that back to the 17 community. My concern is that there may not be 18 enough inspectors to, at the moment, to go around 19 without the establishment of, again, of a special 20 oversight. 21 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But that's not 22 your problem. 23 MR. GERSON: That's right. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's their 25 problem, and if they have to hire more inspectors to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 364 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 do it, and HPD should be involved also. 3 MR. GERSON: I am going to take this 4 suggestion back, and I think that's an outstanding 5 suggestion. 6 Let me add, in addition to the clean 7 up, there is a need for area-wide coordination of 8 air monitoring and dust sampling. All of our 9 experts, and we retained independent experts, tell 10 us that there is a degree of uncertainty, and I 11 think you've heard that the fires are still burning, 12 we need to -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You weren't here 14 earlier, but we had a panel, our first panel, of 15 various City agencies -- 16 MR. GERSON: Okay. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And the lead 18 agency now for safety is Department of Design and 19 Construction, and the lead agency for testing would 20 be EPA. So, there are various agencies involved. And 21 there is a prominent role being played, so there is 22 coordination by the various agencies involved, I 23 think you have to be put in touch with those 24 agencies. 25 MR. GERSON: As of yesterday -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 365 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: There were talks 3 about testing, and also private testing is going on. 4 MR. GERSON: As of at least 24 hours 5 ago, there was still no air monitoring station set 6 up outside of Gateway; there was no air monitoring 7 station set up outside of South Bridge; there was no 8 air monitoring station set up outside of Chatham 9 Green. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I think this has 11 to be done, and a request has to be made, and the 12 only way you can possibly ask people to return to 13 the housing to live there and to reestablish their 14 lives is if they can show them that it's safe. And 15 if it's not, then people have to find to live 16 elsewhere. I hate to say that to you before you take 17 office -- 18 MR. GERSON: No, I agree with you. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: But of paramount 20 concern is the safety of the individuals living in 21 that district. 22 MR. GERSON: I agree. And we're just 23 concerned that with the multiplicity of agencies 24 involved -- 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: That's why I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 366 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 referred to them as a team and a coordinated effort. 3 MR. GERSON: Great. 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They were all 5 here today. 6 MR. GERSON: Okay. Well, then that's a 7 step in the right direction. 8 Then the last area of needed 9 coordination is the ground dust sampling, that the 10 air monitoring and the ground dust sampling and our 11 experts tell us, especially in areas where children 12 play, this is important, not because of the 13 edibility aspect of it, but as they play they stir 14 up dust naturally, and there was dust sampling in 15 Washington Park just south of Independence Plaza. 16 There has been no, to date, dust sampling in parks 17 in the surrounding area near South Bridge, even in 18 Washington Square Park, even though those areas 19 receive the dirty air on a regular basis. 20 So, again, we have requested this, 21 and, again -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Who have you 23 requested it from? 24 MR. GERSON: DEP. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: DEP and EPA are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 367 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the ones who are going to be working on that. 3 MR. GERSON: Well, we'll follow up 4 with that. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if they're 6 not responding to you, let me know and I will, 7 myself, call them. 8 MR. GERSON: Okay. 9 And, actually, there was one last 10 point that I want to -- 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It is important 12 to set this up in one list so we can request it 13 once. 14 MR. GERSON: I will provide you with a 15 checklist tomorrow of our requests. 16 Okay, and then my last point which 17 will be on that list is dust suppression. 18 You just heard some testimony, I'm 19 sure you heard it earlier, that the dust in the air 20 and the smell ebbs and flows, it's especially worse 21 at night. We are not convinced that state-of-the-art 22 dust suppression is being followed from ground zero 23 through the barge removal, through Great Kills. 24 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We spent a lot 25 of time on the questioning on that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 368 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. GERSON: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And what they 4 talked about, watering down and watering systems and 5 going on using the tarpaulins to cover the trucks 6 that are coming out with the dust and watering down 7 the trucks with huge pieces of steel on them, which 8 they can't cover with tarpaulins because they said 9 it's so hot that it burns through the tarpaulins. 10 And also the watering that I know has been going on, 11 today there was some talk about it, in the papers 12 today, of the barges right near Stuyvesant. 13 MR. GERSON: Well, if you can't cover 14 the trucks -- 15 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: The trucks, you 16 should be covering the trucks with the concrete and 17 all the other loose substances that come in, but as 18 far as the trucks with the huge pieces of steel on 19 them, they are watering them down before they leave 20 the sites. 21 MR. GERSON: Okay. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: In an effort to 23 get rid of the dust. 24 We have asked them, and we have asked 25 Mr. Adams, who is the person in charge of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 369 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Department of Design if he will lead us on a tour, 3 and I will ask him to include you in -- 4 MR. GERSON: I would appreciate that. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: -- On what they 6 are doing. 7 MR. GERSON: And the last thing you 8 just need to know, the folks who probably have it 9 worse in that regard are the folks in Independence 10 Plaza. They are right across the street from the 11 barge, and they are exposed to this 24 hours, that 12 it's the dust, and it is the noise with the dropping 13 of the metal. We can't allow that for a year. Either 14 it has to be moved or it has to be suppressed or 15 those folks need to be relocated. 16 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Your predecessor 17 lives somewhere around there. 18 MR. GERSON: Absolutely. She is going 19 to be actively pursuing that, I am sure. 20 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: She was here 21 really fighting for you. 22 MR. GERSON: Okay, that's great. 23 Well, I thank you very much. 24 I will give you the check list. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Yes, please. We Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 370 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 want to be helpful. Please utilize this Committee, 3 and we will be helpful. 4 MR. GERSON: I will submit this 5 testimony today, and I will supply the checklist to 6 your office tomorrow. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I look forward 8 to working with you. 9 MR. GERSON: I do, too. Thank you very 10 much. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Mr. Ameruso. 12 Welcome. We are very glad you are here. 13 MR. AMERUSO: Thank you so much. Thank 14 you for holding these hearings. I want to echo what 15 Alan had said. 16 My name is Marc Ameruso. I am a 17 member of Community Board 1, but I think in lieu of 18 what's being submitted by the Chair, I'm basically 19 going to say just for the record I am speaking for 20 myself. 21 My name is Marc Ameruso. I have been 22 a resident of Tribecca for ten years. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: A new-comer, 24 huh? 25 MR. AMERUSO: Also a member of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 371 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Community Board 1. 3 What's that? 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: A new-comer. 5 MR. AMERUSO: New-comer, right, yeah. 6 I was living in the West Village before that. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: All right, just 8 kidding. 9 MR. AMERUSO: Walking distance. 10 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Where were you 11 born? 12 MR. AMERUSO: Brooklyn. 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: You're a New 14 Yorker. 15 MR. AMERUSO: Yes, Flatbush. Brooklyn, 16 Flatbush. Oh, yes, I'm a New Yorker. 17 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We accept 18 Brooklyn people as New Yorkers. 19 MR. AMERUSO: Transplanted 20 Brooklynite. 21 Since September 11th, like many 22 others, I've been very concerned with the air 23 quality since the collapse of the World Trade 24 Center. 25 I will probably be like the first Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 372 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 non-expert that you are talking to today. 3 Four weeks ago I never heard of 4 furans or chrysotiles, or how harmful they can be to 5 humans. 6 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Furans and what 7 was the other one? 8 MR. AMERUSO: What are they called - 9 chrysotiles, I think. What are they called? Asbestos 10 chemical. Chrysotiles, yes, right. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Join the club. 12 MR. AMERUSO: Yes. 13 So, I'm just learning about these 14 things, I've been trying to educate myself. 15 I just want to say a couple of things 16 that you already know, but just for the record. 17 The area where the World Trade Center 18 stood is my neighborhood and my home, and please 19 let's not forget, because even after the attacks I 20 still am finding myself having to convince some of 21 the powers that be and people who will be charged 22 with rebuilding this site, that this area is a 23 neighborhood, with many long-time residents, more 24 than ten years, and with children and a wonderful 25 community and people that want to stay here. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 373 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 One day the fires and the smoke will 3 clear, disappear, but right now the air quality can 4 throw a real monkey wrench into our efforts. 5 I am not an alarmist, I just want to 6 know the truth. The resulting distribution of dust 7 and particulate matter blowing around the City, 8 including into Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, as 9 well as the fires that continue to burn under the 10 rubble spouting a laundry list of toxic chemicals 11 that most of us can't even pronounce, are making 12 residents and rescue workers sick, with particular 13 risk to children, pregnant women, and elderly. 14 And I have been to several forums and 15 often you hear from many doctors, we hear this thing 16 that some of these symptoms are psychosomatic, and I 17 would dismiss anyone who would say that, to try and 18 convince a person of that. 19 To put this in perspective, I just 20 want to briefly tell you a little bit of my story, 21 and it will fit into what I want to talk about with 22 the air quality. 23 On September 11th I was home, just 24 waking up, preparing for primary day, working on 25 Alan's campaign. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 374 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I would hope so. 3 MR. AMERUSO: What's that? 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I would hope so. 5 MR. AMERUSO: Yes, and Kathryn's too. 6 Like I said, I was home, just waking 7 up, preparing for the campaign, and, of course, that 8 didn't happen. 9 When the Towers collapsed I went to 10 my car, I used to be in the construction business, 11 got all the gear that I had out of there, went down 12 to help, see what I could do. 13 My equipment, of course, did not 14 include a respirator. 15 I stayed at the site for the next 16 three and a half days helping in any way I could, 17 from search and rescue to off-loading ships bringing 18 supplies and equipment. I slept in Stuyvesant High 19 School for two nights, and everybody down there was 20 great. 21 In the handout -- 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I take it you're 23 not married? 24 MR. AMERUSO: Not married, no. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I don't think Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 375 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 your wife would appreciate that. 3 MR. AMERUSO: The handout that I gave 4 you has some photos down there. 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I looked at 6 them. Very interesting. 7 MR. AMERUSO: Yes. So, just from the 8 photos, just because we are talking about the 9 respirator masks, as you can see, this is the first 10 day, this is the 11th, and all I had was a surgical 11 mask, and you can see the surrounding, that most 12 people either had surgical masks or didn't have 13 anything. And the second day I finally got the mask, 14 you can't see I'm smiling in that picture, but 15 because I have it, and then the third day, you can 16 see in the background that a lot of people aren't 17 wearing their masks or don't even have one. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: All right? 19 MR. AMERUSO: By the way, there were 20 many people down there, volunteers like me, I guess 21 you can call them like ground zero civilian 22 volunteers who just showed up. No one told us what 23 to do, we just, you know, tug along and helped the 24 firefighters, rescue workers, and everyone just kind 25 of knew what to do. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 376 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The three and a half days that I 3 spent down there I observed very few rescue workers 4 wearing respirator masks, and I didn't hear anyone 5 giving instructions to do so. Although, I did see 6 several handwritten signs saying asbestos levels are 7 high, wear your mask. 8 Interestingly, though, members of the 9 military and rescue workers from out of town who had 10 their own respirators almost always kept their masks 11 on while they were working. It seemed as if they 12 knew that they had to do that. 13 Some treatment that I had at the 14 triage center at Stuyvesant included oxygen 15 treatment twice for a respiratory condition, eyewash 16 at least nine times, and antibiotic eye drops for a 17 scratched cornea. I still have a nagging cough, as 18 do many other people that I've spoken with. 19 I resigned myself to the fact that I 20 may get sick in ten or 20 or 30 years because of 21 this, but I accept it because helping was the right 22 thing to do. 23 I relay this part of my experience to 24 you not to brag, just, because it's not my way, I 25 just told you this story because going down there to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 377 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 help was my choice. The main problem here is that 3 EPA is not giving residents of New York and rescue 4 workers a choice by telling them that the air is 5 okay. 6 Now, I don't know if this Committee 7 has subpoena power, but you did say you were going 8 to have hearings again, so in my travels in the 9 forums that I have gone to, I spoke to several of 10 the EPA toxicologists and epidemiologists off the 11 record. 12 They can't even look me in the eye 13 when they say the air quality is okay. I can see the 14 torment in their faces, they know the truth and I 15 feel that they wish that they could tell the truth 16 to anyone. 17 You need to get them down here to 18 testify. You don't need the administrators or the 19 talking heads and all these people that were here 20 today, just blowing smoke. You got to talk to the 21 guys and you gotta have specific questions so you 22 can get specific answers. And I believe Joel has 23 spoken to you about that before, about giving you a 24 list of specific questions to ask. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And if you were Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 378 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 here you would know that most of those questions 3 were asked. 4 MR. AMERUSO: Yes, but as I said, you 5 really need to ask the toxicologists that, not the 6 person who is an administrative person. It seemed 7 like that's the people that were here. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We had some 9 medical personnel here. 10 MR. AMERUSO: Well, I'm just relaying 11 my experience to people I've spoken with off the 12 record. And I didn't see any of them here that I 13 have spoken to. 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: What I'm saying 15 to you is we intend to have a subsequent hearing on 16 November the 8th. 17 MR. AMERUSO: That's right. So, with 18 the follow-up questions you can be more specific and 19 I think it will give them less wiggle room with 20 scientific banter and whatever they're talking 21 about. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Don't be so 23 cynical. We asked them -- 24 MR. AMERUSO: I know. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Kathryn Freed Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 379 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 was here -- 3 MR. AMERUSO: I know. I heard most of 4 that. But I keep hearing the same partyline from 5 EPA, and people are getting sick. People are sick. 6 And coughing and children having headaches, and 7 they're saying it's okay. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I don't believe 9 anybody is saying it's okay. 10 MR. AMERUSO: I think they are saying 11 it's okay for an able-bodied person, but there is a 12 whole other group of people -- 13 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: It's not okay 14 for able-bodied person either, and nobody is saying 15 that. The question is whether there are long-term, 16 as well as -- 17 MR. AMERUSO: That's what I'm saying. 18 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Everybody agrees 19 there are short-term effects. I feel it myself. 20 MR. AMERUSO: Yes. I don't buy the 21 fact that these short-term effects can't go into 22 long-term effects. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Well, it may 24 very well be, and that's what the study, and that's 25 why you had the people here from NYU talking about Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 380 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that, doing those studies. 3 MR. AMERUSO: I just want to talk 4 about some of the things that -- 5 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: I'm sorry to 6 interrupt you. 7 MR. AMERUSO: Oh, go ahead. 8 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: No, I'm sorry I 9 interrupted you. 10 MR. AMERUSO: Oh, not at all. 11 As Joel had mentioned today, the only 12 way to get most of this information was through 13 Freedom of Information Act, that we had to file, or 14 that he filed with the EPA, and also he had 15 mentioned that New York City Department of Health, 16 there was a FOIL request for them and they haven't 17 given us anything. So, I don't know if the Committee 18 has any power in that regard. 19 So, the question remains why are 20 people getting sick? 21 Each time the rubble is removed, 22 oxygen gets underneath there and fuels the fire, 23 burning countless types of materials that were in 24 the World Trade Center. I think you talked about 25 that in your briefing also. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 381 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 When I was at another forum, a 3 scientist was talking about things that were called 4 "super tiny particles", and I believe that the 5 current equipment that the EPA is using cannot 6 detect these type of particles. 7 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: We were talking 8 about there are two types of ways to examine them. 9 The PCMs, which is the microscopy, versus the very 10 fine -- 11 MR. AMERUSO: Right. 12 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Which is TEM, 13 which is Transmission Electronic Microscopy. Those 14 are the ones that will be able to detect the fine -- 15 MR. AMERUSO: But at the moment, or at 16 least up until the last few weeks, or a week, they 17 haven't been able to detect those, and those are 18 probably more harmful, it was my understanding. 19 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: They are using 20 the TEMs, the TEMs. 21 MR. AMERUSO: So, that's my concern 22 also. 23 And at that same forum there was 24 another scientist who said that he was working with 25 EPA to what he said recreate the plume in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 382 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 laboratory of the first day, to try and figure out 3 what exactly would be in the plume. So, in other 4 words, they probably don't know. Any report that I 5 have seen, I haven't seen any reports or test 6 results from at least the first three days, nothing 7 I've seen much on the 11th, and I don't even know if 8 they tested for all these slue of chemicals and 9 toxins that we're talking about up until maybe a 10 week or so later. So, that's also a concern of mine. 11 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Anything else? 12 MR. AMERUSO: Yes, I just have a few 13 more minutes, if that would be okay? 14 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Go ahead. 15 MR. AMERUSO: Okay. 16 One other thing that I also learned 17 in my research is the broad, and we touched on this, 18 the broad spectrum testing that the EPA is 19 conducting does not take into account one important 20 factor, and just because a test result doesn't reach 21 or go over some threshold that say EPA or OSHA set, 22 doesn't mean it's not going to make people sick. 23 Just because they're saying it hasn't reached a 24 certain level, is really irrelevant to people who 25 are coughing and having problems. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 383 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Now, some of the highlights I 3 highlight here that were in this, that was gotten 4 from a FOIL request, Joel had already went over that 5 samples were collected and levels were high, so I'm 6 not going to go over that again, because he already 7 put it into the record. 8 So, the last thing I basically just 9 want to say is that, you asked earlier why you think 10 the EPA might be not being forthright with these 11 numbers - I really honestly believe that it has to 12 do with real estate values and stock market being 13 open and the perception that New York is okay, when 14 it really isn't. And people's lives I feel are being 15 sacrificed because of this perception -- I mean, 16 downtown Manhattan is not going anywhere. The real 17 estate values will always be what it is, and I 18 honestly feel that that's the motivation behind 19 everything that's happening here. 20 I wish I was wrong, but that's the 21 way I feel. And I want to thank the Committee for 22 having these hearings. 23 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you very 24 much. I appreciate. 25 Do you have something? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 384 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. GERSON: Just ten seconds. This 3 type of concern is truly widespread in the 4 community, and that's why an independent panel of 5 experts that would review and coordinate and report 6 we feel would go a long way, either to reassuring 7 or, if there is a problem, getting at the problem. 8 The other last minor point I 9 overlooked, but maybe it's not so minor, cars in the 10 street that are parked, they stay out for a day or 11 two, they have dust on their hoods all over them. We 12 have not been told what to do, how to remove that 13 dust, what to do to prevent the dust from being 14 spread as the cars speed away. 15 Again, this is part of, and I will 16 have this on my check list, you'll have that 17 tomorrow, but these little nuances sometimes make 18 all the difference and a czar or an entity or 19 somebody dedicated to the clean-up downtown we feel 20 would go a long way. 21 Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: Thank you both. 23 I appreciate you being here. 24 MR. GERSON: Thank you so much. 25 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: And I guess Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 385 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 there is no more testimony today. 3 Is there anyone else who wishes to be 4 heard? 5 There being none, this meeting is 6 adjourned until November 8, and we thank you all for 7 coming. Have a good evening and have a good weekend. 8 MR. GERSON: Thank you. 9 (Hearing concluded at 4:40 p.m.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 386 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 11 State of New York, do hereby certify that the 12 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the 13 within proceeding. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 related to any of the parties to this action by 16 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 17 interested in the outcome of this matter. 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand this 1st day of November 2001. 20 21 22 23 24 --------------------- 25 CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 387 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified Shorthand 10 Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of 11 New York, do hereby certify the aforesaid to be a 12 true and accurate copy of the transcription of the 13 audio tapes of this hearing. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ----------------------- CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410