ࡱ>  z|}   !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~Root Entry Fow%WordDocument / CompObjn a lot 23 on our plate today, so we have to move through the 24 first part of the testimony so we can give the 25 proper amount of time to the folks from DEP, who are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 4 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 going to tell us all about our drought problem. 3 So, good morning. I would like to 4 welcome my colleagues to the first meeting of this 5 Committee, for about two segments, which I just went 6 over, and the opening statement also makes reference 7 to the fact that I served this Committee for ten 8 years, as a policy analyst for the Committee. I took 9 ten years to go from this seat to this seat, so it 10 shows how far you can go in ten years. You can go 11 six inches in ten years. 12 And, so, I was pleased and proud to 13 serve in that capacity for all these years, and now 14 I look forward to serving in my new capacity. 15 I also want to welcome the Council 16 members that are in attendance today: Councilman 17 Serrano from the Bronx; Councilman Koppell from the 18 Bronx. Also, I would like to add that Councilman 19 Koppell chaired the Environmental Protection, or I 20 guess it was the Committee on Environmental 21 Conservation I guess it was, for the State Assembly, 22 let us say a couple of years ago, right? 23 We're also joined by Council Member 24 Kendall Stewart who is not a member of the 25 Committee, but is certainly welcome here. We welcome Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 5 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 him here. 3 Council Member Jennings from Queens, 4 the district just to the south of mine; and Council 5 Member Vallone. And we'll be joined by other members 6 of the Committee as we proceed. 7 The staff that's with us here today 8 is Allison Rosen, a long-time counsel to this 9 Committee, it's great to continue my work with her; 10 Liz McLaughlin, a policy analyst. Also, policy 11 analyst Ami Lipman; and Steve Solomon from our 12 Finance Division, another long-term staff member. 13 So, welcome. 14 And we're going to be talking about a 15 wide range of issues over the next session, whether 16 it's through legislation or oversight, and we 17 certainly want to pick up on some of the work that 18 was done during the prior session, and we're going 19 to follow up on some of the good work that was done 20 under the guidance under the former chair of this -- 21 the former Chair of this Committee, Stan Michels, 22 who was a mentor of mine, and was very happy to 23 serve him, and very grateful for all of the good 24 work that he did, and we want to follow up on. 25 Certainly we want to do a lot in this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 6 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 upcoming session on the protection of the City's 3 upstate water supply. As anyone who has followed 4 this Committee for the last decade knows, we've had 5 a large presence on those issues. We're under a 6 filtration avoidance determinܥe# 5/ 2,. l,. l. . . 5(. . . T. z_5 MS Sans Serif Symbol0Courier New 1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 8 -------------------------------x 9 10 February 25, 2002 Start: 10:18 a.m. 11 Recess: 1:00 p.m. 12 City Hall Council Chambers 13 New York, New York 14 B E F O R E: 15 JAMES GENNARO 16 Chairperson, 17 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Bill DeBlasio 18 Allan Jennings Oliver Koppell 19 Jose Serrano Peter Vallone 20 Kendall Stewart 21 22 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 217 Broadway - Suite 511 25 New York, New York 10007 (800) 756-3410 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 Karen Argenti 4 Friends of Jerome Park Reservoir 5 Dr. Paul Mankiewicz 6 Michael Lockhart President 7 American Telephone and Utility Consultants 8 Joel A. Miele, Sr., P.E. Commissioner 9 NYC Department of Environmental Protection 10 Doug Greeley Deputy Commissioner 11 Bureau of Water and Sewer Operations NYC Department of Environmental Protection 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 3 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Welcome, 3 everyone. Oh, I've got to bang the gavel first, 4 right? I guess we're just about ready. 5 My name is Council Member Jim 6 Gennaro, Chair of this Committee. I would like to 7 welcome everyone here today. I know that it's been 8 said before, but there was some confusion as to the 9 topic of this hearing. This is not going to have 10 anything to do with the air pollution problems 11 regarding the World Trade Center, that will be a 12 hearing on Friday, March 8th, at 10:00 a.m., that 13 will be a joint hearing with the Committee on Health 14 and possibly also a joint hearing with the Committee 15 on Lower Manhattan Development, or Redevelopment, I 16 should say. So, the topics today are going to be, 17 we're going to have, you know, just a general 18 start-off meeting which we'll talk about the topics 19 we want to cover over the session and in a little 20 more than an hour from now we're going to have the 21 DEP come and talk about the drought situation. So, 22 it will be a two-part hearing. We have kind ofation, which we 7 certainly want to keep going. That will be a big 8 year for that issue, because I guess in May of this 9 year -- May, Mark? Is that when it is, May of this 10 year we get to review to see if we're still worthy 11 of staying under that filtration avoidance order? 12 Hopefully we will live up to that or 13 be saddled with having to build a $8 billion 14 filtration plant which we don't want to do. 15 Certainly that's going to be a big issue for this 16 Committee. 17 Also, we want to talk a lot in this 18 Committee about air quality. We want to take a look 19 at the noise code, certainly that's something we've 20 done quite a bit on in the past, but there's much, 21 much more to do on that. There is a power plant bill 22 that we'll be taking a look at. I'm the co-sponsor 23 of that, along with Council Member Vallone. 24 We want to talk about brownfields. 25 Brownfields is certainly I think going to be a big Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 7 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 thing for this Committee, as well. I don't think the 3 City does nearly enough with regard to the 4 brownfields, and that may be due to the fact that we 5 don't have a comprehensive brownfields bill from 6 Albany yet. Hopefully we will get one soon, but even 7 in the absence of one we have to do whatever we can 8 to take those 5,000 and 6,000 some odd properties 9 that are contaminated and right for development, and 10 we can free up private money to come in and, you 11 know, work some of these sites. We can take some of 12 the pollution out, we can bring some of the jobs in, 13 that would be a welcome thing at this point, 14 particularly with the economic straights that we're 15 in. 16 So, those are just a couple of things 17 that I have on my mind regarding the agenda for the 18 Committee for the next year, and as I mentioned 19 earlier, for those of you who just came in, about an 20 hour from now we'll be having the second part of the 21 hearing at which we'll be hearing from the good 22 folks from DEP and we'll sort of take a look at all 23 of our drought woes. 24 That pretty much wraps up my 25 statement, although I do very much want to thank all Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 8 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 those people who came to listen and came to give us 3 the benefit of their views today. Without you folks 4 we really wouldn't have anything to do here. I thank 5 you for all of your wise testimony through the 6 years. I know most of you, it's been a pleasure to 7 work with you, and I want to thank all of the 8 members of this Committee. I look forward towards 9 working with them, certainly I want to work 10 collaboratively with them. We have a lot of real 11 good people on this Committee, and we have a great 12 staff as well. And I want to thank Speaker Miller 13 for putting together such a good committee and I am 14 very, very grateful to him and the leadership that 15 he, himself, has shown on the environment. He's 16 actually a former member of this Committee, and I've 17 worked closely with him throughout the years on a 18 lot of issues that are very dear to all of us. 19 So, without further ado, I'd like to 20 know if, and I want to hear from some of the other 21 members on this Committee, if you have something to 22 say at the outset. Council Member Vallone had 23 indicated he'd like to make a little statement, so 24 I'll recognize Council Member Vallone. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: Thank you, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 9 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 First let me say how honored I am to 4 be on this prestigious committee, and especially 5 honored with you as Chairman, your background in 6 this is second to none, and I look forward to 7 continuing to work with you on these issues. We have 8 worked together in the past, as you know, I was 9 Counsel to CHOCE, the Coalition Helping Organize a 10 Cleaner Environment, and we have worked together 11 with you as a policy analyst on past bills. We've 12 just recently resubmitted the C02 Bill, which may be 13 one of the most important things the Council works 14 on in the coming months. 15 I look forward to working with your 16 fine staff, with Allison Rosen, and I see some 17 members, the League of Conservation Voters are here 18 and we've worked with them in the past. 19 I've read your -- and just listened 20 to your statement of issues that we will be touching 21 on in the next at least two years, and I concur 22 completely. These are very important issues. As you 23 know, dearest to my heart right now is the power 24 plant issue, and that's one of the reasons I ran for 25 office, and one of the reasons I so desired to be on Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 10 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 this Committee. 3 On March 8th -- I'm sorry, the 15th 4 there is a symposium at Fordham University in which 5 I will be speaking at, and the topic is balancing 6 the energy and environmental needs of this City. I'd 7 invite you and the other Council members to attend, 8 and if you're an attorney, you also get credit for 9 listening to me, which is scary, I know, but you do 10 get credit. It's not that funny. 11 But, again, I agree with your 12 statement of intent on what we will do in the 13 future. The C02 Bill, I hope to get moving on as 14 quickly as possible, and I'm proud to be a 15 co-sponsor of that bill with you, and look forward 16 to working with all of the fine members of this 17 Committee. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you very 20 much, Council Member Vallone. Thank you. 21 Council Member Koppell wishes to be 22 recognized. 23 Council Member Koppell. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Thank you. 25 First of all, congratulations on your appointment as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 11 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Chairman. As you mentioned, in Albany I served as 3 Chairman of the Environmental Conservation Committee 4 for three years. I served as Chairman of three 5 important committees in Albany, but I don't think 6 anyone was as interesting and challenging and 7 rewarding as the Environmental Committee, certainly 8 none was more interesting. 9 I served at a time when shortly after 10 Earth Day, the first Earth Day, and we passed 11 legislation in so many different areas, including 12 perhaps the most important legislation, the State 13 Environmental Quality Review Act, which was passed 14 in final form under my chairmanship, and that still 15 is probably the single most important environmental 16 legislation we have. 17 There are two issues that I want to 18 stress that are particular significance, that are 19 significant to all of us, but particularly my 20 district, the first issue: I don't think you 21 mentioned it in your oral statement, but I am 22 pleased you mentioned it in your written statement, 23 and that is the Croton Watershed Filtration issue. 24 Because prior administrations have made misguided 25 efforts to locate a filtration plant not only in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 12 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 City of New York, where I don't think it should be 3 at all, if at all possible, but if in the City of 4 New York they pick two completely inappropriate 5 locations, one around the Jerome Reservoir and the 6 second in Van Cortlandt Park, and both of those 7 locations ended up abandoned, at least we hope 8 they're abandoned for different reasons, one for 9 sort of political reasons, and the other for legal 10 reasons. 11 There are new proposals for location 12 of the Croton Filtration plant, and I would suggest 13 that the Committee should look at that. In fact, I 14 would suggest that it might be worth having a 15 hearing concerning the location of the filtration 16 plant and indeed the necessity for that filtration 17 plant, because there are many people who believe 18 that the Croton Watershed could be protected without 19 the necessity -- or the water from the Croton 20 Watershed could be protected without the necessity 21 of building that plant, as we're trying to avoid 22 building a filtration plant for the Catskill and 23 Delaware systems. 24 So, that's an issue that's 25 particularly important to me, and I'd like the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 13 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Committee to focus on that, and as I say, perhaps 3 hold a hearing. We shouldn't make the mistakes that 4 have been made in the past of wasting a lot of time 5 and effort, creating a log of angst in the community 6 by an inappropriate site. 7 And I would hope still that either we 8 could avoid the plant entire or build a plant in 9 Westchester, and those alternatives should be 10 explored extensively. 11 There's a new site that adjoins my 12 district and adjoins the district of Councilwoman 13 Baez and Councilman Rivera, so we're all interested 14 in that in the Bronx. 15 The second issue that I think we 16 might want to think about is the question of Indian 17 Point. There's a lot of political agitation now, 18 especially Westchester, to close Indian Point. I 19 think we should know all of the implications of 20 that. I'm not going to jump too rapidly on any 21 bandwagon, either to keep it open or to close it, 22 but since Indian Point is pretty close to the City 23 of New York, and I believe a considerable amount of 24 power actually comes down here, we ought to 25 understand all the implications of closing Indian Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 14 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Point before too long. 3 I have been asked to take a position, 4 I said I don't want to take a position until I know 5 more. I think it's relevant for this Committee to 6 look into it. Perhaps to have a hearing on it, 7 certainly to look into it. 8 Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Let 10 me just make some comments based on a couple of 11 things you brought up. Yes, I would let people know 12 that I do have a written opening statement, I didn't 13 follow it word for word, but that is available to 14 you and everyone who is here today. If you want 15 that, it certainly will be made available to you. 16 Also, to the members of the 17 Committee, I hope everyone has, there was a memo 18 that went out in addition to the briefing paper. 19 It's dated February 22nd, possible Committee 20 activities for 2002, and I sort of paraphrased from 21 that a little bit in my opening remarks, it talks 22 about some issues in there as well, so if you don't 23 have that, it should be in your packets. It was put 24 out today, this morning. Okay, so people have that. 25 With regard to Croton, certainly that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 15 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 is a big issue that we have to take a look at. 3 Certainly I know, I recognize the people in the 4 audience today who are going to have something to 5 say about that as well, so thank you for bringing 6 that up. 7 And with regard to Indian Point, 8 actually I am sponsoring a resolution, it will be 9 introduced this week on Indian Point, so I'm sort of 10 weighing in on this issue personally, and so that 11 would be something for sure that we're going to be 12 taking a very, very close look at, so thank you very 13 much. 14 And the Chair, that would be me, 15 recognizes Council Member Serrano. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER SERRANO: Thank you 17 very much, Council Member Gennaro. And I would also 18 like to congratulate you on your appointment as 19 Chairman, and I'm very happy to be a part of this 20 Committee, especially thinking about where I 21 represent in the South Bronx, we have serious 22 environmental issues there that we need to grapple 23 with. I know that the residents of the City as a 24 whole, and especially in areas such as the South 25 Bronx, will look to this Committee for guidance and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 16 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 for support to be a chief advocate for the issues 3 that they are facing. 4 Two things that were mentioned in the 5 papers here, your briefing papers, especially the 6 alternative fuels law, again, many in the community 7 will be looking for that. As we all know, we have 8 serious problems with asthma rates, directly linked 9 to the truck routes that are going straight through 10 residential areas in the South Bronx. So, again, 11 that is an issue that we will grapple with. It's 12 very gratifying to know that we will be on that. 13 Also, in regards to the power plants, 14 a little different than what was discussed earlier, 15 but in the South Bronx, in my district, we had four 16 generators that were placed without due process, 17 without hearings, without environmental impact 18 studies done, and we have serious issues with that. 19 Obviously, the contaminants that 20 these power plants generate are detrimental to the 21 environment and therefore are detrimental to the 22 health of the residents of the South Bronx. So, 23 again, that's something that I hope that we will 24 touch upon and grapple with throughout the time that 25 we are in this Committee. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 17 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 But, again, it's very gratifying to 3 be here. I thank you for your leadership, and I look 4 forward to the work of the Committee. 5 Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 7 Council Member. 8 I just want to make reference to, 9 thanks for pointing out things that I probably 10 should have said in my opening statement but didn't. 11 You made reference to alternative fuels. I was proud 12 to be working with this community back in 1991 when 13 we did Local Law 6 of 1991, which is the City's sort 14 of landmark bill in this area. It's still, you know, 15 kind of ahead of its time, even though it's more 16 than ten years old. 17 But back when that law was done, we 18 did not have the technology available for alt fuels, 19 for heavy duty trucks and so on, so I think it will 20 be critically important to revisit that. 21 I think we should have garbage trucks 22 and other vehicles that pollute less. We have the 23 ability to do that by legislation and I think we 24 should. So, I'm glad to hear that you're for that, 25 and something that we'll look into. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 18 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I recognize Council Member Bill 3 DeBlasio. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER DeBLASIO: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chairman. 6 I want to first of all apologize for 7 being a few minutes late, but I want to more 8 importantly just say, it's very, very gratifying for 9 all of us who worked here in the Council during the 10 time of Speaker Vallone and knew how strong your 11 work was on this Committee, and you were really one 12 of the exemplars of this staff here in the Council, 13 and now to see you elevated to Chairman, it's 14 emotionally and, as a matter of public policy, it's 15 very gratifying. And thank you for your leadership. 16 Let me just raise some points very 17 quickly, and I appreciate all the directions that 18 you're already talking about taking the Committee 19 in, including today's topic. 20 On the previous point of Indian Point 21 and then on the question for alternative fuels, I'm 22 very concerned of the larger trend nationally, and I 23 have to say it has something to do with the current 24 administration in Washington, particularly the 25 previous occupation of our vice president, that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 19 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 there is a -- it seems to me all of the lessons we 3 learned over the last few decades about alternative 4 fuels, about issues around nuclear power, seem to 5 have been forgotten rapidly. So, I think it's very 6 important that we look at Indian Point, and at all 7 the alternative fuel possibilities that New York 8 City could employ, including, of course, electric 9 vehicles and other methodologies. But it's very 10 interesting to me that solar energy and wind power 11 and all sorts of things that were considered major, 12 major possibilities in the seventies and eighties 13 seem to have fallen off the debate, and I think it's 14 time for us to contribute to reviving them. 15 Three other quick issues. I know 16 we're going to look at the aftermath of World Trade 17 in terms of air quality, and I know other committees 18 are doing that as well on different levels of 19 government. I just want to note that a lot of areas 20 of the City besides Lower Manhattan were grievously 21 affected, and my district in Brooklyn, actually as 22 the crow flies very, very close to the World Trade 23 site and I remember very vividly that day, 24 tragically seeing the ash come over into our 25 neighborhoods, and I think it's crucial for people Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 20 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in Brooklyn also to really get the straight story on 3 what's happening with our air quality and what steps 4 are being taken. 5 And then two other quick issues. I 6 know brownfields were mentioned earlier, I just want 7 to note that I think for a lot of our neighborhoods, 8 the lack of clarity on brownfields and the lack of 9 responsibility being taken by different levels of 10 government and by certain private sector entities, 11 is really paralyzing possibilities for legitimate 12 development. 13 I know we have one very significant 14 six-acre site in my district that could be used for 15 housing, could be used for business, but 16 unfortunately sites unused for over 30 years because 17 it's so hard to resolve brownfield issues. So, the 18 more that we can be an agent for streamlining and 19 making real responsibility occur in each 20 neighborhood would be very, very helpful. 21 And lastly, the question of West Nile 22 and how to deal with it has again, it seems to have 23 receded in the public debate, but I think we all 24 know that there are still very serious issues, 25 impact on Long Island Sound being one of them, but Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 21 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 also what will we do in the future, what is an 3 appropriate response? I know people in my community, 4 we have Prospect Park in our district, and there is 5 real issues about the spraying and the impact it had 6 on people, and I hope at some point we'll be able to 7 maybe take more of a proactive stance in looking 8 into those issues and seeing where the City is going 9 in the future. 10 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 12 Certainly that's something that we 13 have to take a look at in concert with the Committee 14 on Health. That might be an opportunity for us to 15 sort of partner with them, as we will partner with 16 them, as I mentioned earlier, on Friday, March 8th, 17 when we have our World Trade Center hearing. 18 Yes, and also, regarding my being 19 elevated as Chairman, because I'm like sitting on a 20 stack of newspapers now. I'm like sitting on a stack 21 of newspapers, so if I seem elevated, that could be 22 the reason. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER DeBLASIO: I meant 24 intellectually. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I see. I took a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 22 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 page out of Stan Michels' book, and he always used 3 to -- well, I shouldn't give out his trade secrets. 4 Anyway, I recognize Council Member Jennings. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you, 6 Mr. Chairman. I'm honored to serve on this 7 Committee. As we all know, environmental issues in 8 New York City need to be put to the forefront. It's 9 often the forgotten committee and because of cost 10 and benefits, the environment is always put to the 11 back. 12 You and I both live in adjacent 13 districts to each other, and my community is 14 Jamaica, I represent Jamaica, Richmond Hill, South 15 Ozone Park, Rochdale Village, but I want to talk 16 about all of southern Queens. 17 South of Hillside Avenue, for years 18 has been a big issue with regards to water 19 contamination, and we now went from Jamaica Water to 20 DEP, now administrating the water supply to southern 21 Queens, but yet those issues of water contaminants 22 has not changed, it's still the same dirty water 23 that we're drinking. 24 You didn't discuss this this morning 25 in regards of taking on this issue in a serious Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 23 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 manner. And I know that it's probably on your mind, 3 but I want to let you know on behalf of my 4 community, my community does not want lip service 5 from the City Council or from this administration 6 with regards to yes, okay, we're going to take care 7 of it one day. We want this issue to be taken up in 8 this legislative session. We want the serious issue 9 with regards to well water, we're the only community 10 in the City of New York that has well water, and if 11 you understand, I'm sure in the last Council you may 12 have done the studies, with regards to the 13 contaminants going to the aquifers from dry 14 cleaning. We have a big industrial park area in 15 Jamaica, Queens, and a long-term contaminants in 16 Jamaica are now DEP, they're way of testing, they 17 stick a tester here to check for contamination, 18 meanwhile over here where the well is, contaminated 19 water is coming into the pipelines and we're 20 drinking this, I will just put it in plain terms, 21 dirty water. 22 Number two, I was very disturbed to 23 read something in the paper last week where the DEP 24 is planning on selling contaminated water to laundry 25 mats and to car washes, special water, especially Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 24 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 when it comes to, I can understand selling dirty 3 water to car washes, but to laundry mats where our 4 children's clothes are going to be washed in that, 5 and we have to wear it, I would like us to do some 6 studies on what the impact and what environmental 7 result will happen to our children using this water. 8 No one suggests in other communities 9 that they wash their clothes in contaminated water, 10 why Jamaica, Queens? Why people of Southern Queens? 11 Why when it comes to environmental issues and 12 contamination, we're not taken seriously? 13 And I would hope that this Committee 14 really takes serious action in regards to 15 contamination and in regards to other environmental 16 issues in other minority communities, because it 17 seems it's always, well, it's okay in their 18 neighborhood, but not in our neighborhood, and we 19 need to move forward as a City and as a country, as 20 America, we are all one people, and when one group 21 of people is affected, we're all affected. We can no 22 longer take the stance, and no public policy person 23 or public official can join in with others and say, 24 well, let it happen over there but not over here, 25 because when it happens over there, it happens Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 25 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 everywhere. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, thank you, 5 Councilman Jennings. 6 I do want to get to the witnesses, 7 but I just want to speak to some of the points you 8 raise, and with regard to the wells in the former 9 Jamaica Water service area, I don't think that too 10 many people have more of a command of those issues 11 than I do. I've worked on these issues for a long 12 time. Once upon a time, as you probably know, those 13 wells used to pump upwards of 100 million gallons a 14 day that was put into the system, now they're 15 pumping on the order of something about 24 million 16 gallons a day of which only 19 million is actually 17 put into the system and about 5 million is spilled, 18 and we spilled that water because if we didn't pump 19 it from the wells, people's basements would flood 20 and so on. So, there's, you know, a bunch of 21 technical issues that are part of that. 22 I am a trained geologist and I've 23 been working on these issues for a long time, so 24 I'm, you know, glad that you're strong on this 25 issue, but you should be comforted in the fact that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 26 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the issues of toxics in the ground -- as a matter of 3 fact, I was one of the prime movers for the Council 4 having a series of hearings on leaking underground 5 storage tanks, where we got a lot of action after it 6 was found out the City itself owned a lot of these 7 leaking storage tanks, and, so, I hope to do a lot 8 on that. I didn't make reference to it in my opening 9 statement, but toxics are a very, very big thing for 10 me. And the water that goes to the area of the 11 former customers of the Jamaica Water Service, I 12 happen to be one of those customers, and so this has 13 not escaped my attention, and we'll give it all 14 proper due diligence. Thank you for your interest in 15 this matter. 16 And without further ado, we're going 17 to, unless anybody else has anything else to say, we 18 have to start getting some witnesses in and out here 19 in order to make way for the DEP who is going to 20 come and talk to us about the drought. 21 I would like to call my first 22 witness, Paul Mankiewicz and Karen Argenti. 23 Did you want to go up as a panel? I 24 know that I had spoken with Karen yesterday and we 25 had talked about this. If you would like to go up as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 27 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 a panel, that's fine. 3 We need about one minute to talk 4 about something, and then we will start with the 5 first witness. Sorry about that. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, do any of 8 the other members have anything to say before we go 9 to our first witness? We're just waiting for Allison 10 to come upstairs with something that she needs 11 before we can do our first witness. 12 Actually, Allison is going down to 13 actually get the oath. This Committee will have a 14 practice of swearing in the witnesses, and, so, I 15 don't know if -- am I actually entitled to 16 administer that oath, or does it have to be done by 17 an attorney? How do you do that? It will be in this 18 Committee. 19 Council Member Koppell, would you be 20 willing to administer the oath to the witnesses? 21 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Council Member 23 Koppell is taking on sort of an out-of-title job 24 duty here, okay, and we thank him for his service. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Who is going Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 28 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to testify? Both are going to testify? 3 Okay, I guess you could both raise 4 your right hand. 5 Do you swear to tell the truth, the 6 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 7 God? 8 MS. ARGENTI: I do. 9 DR. MANKIEWICZ: I do. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 11 Council Member Koppell. 12 I would ask each of you in turn to 13 give your name for the record and proceed with your 14 testimony. 15 MS. ARGENTI: My name is Karen 16 Argenti. I'm with the Friends of Jerome Park 17 Reservoir, and I'm a member of the Bronx Council for 18 Environmental Quality. 19 DR. MANKIEWICZ: My name is Dr. Paul 20 Mankiewicz. I'm the Executive Director of the Guia 21 Institute (phonetic) and the Bronx representative of 22 the New York City Soil and Water Conservation 23 District, and also other committees in the City. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you very 25 much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 29 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MS. ARGENTI: This is so exciting. 3 This is really, I've got to tell you, Jim. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We're here, 5 Karen. We're here. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Dr. 7 Mankiewicz, you're the director of which society? I 8 didn't catch it. 9 DR. MANKIEWICZ: It's the Guia 10 Institute, we do work on ecological restoration and 11 ecological engineering. Some of it in Riverdale 12 itself, in fact. But all around the City, the 13 region, and to some degree around the world. 14 MS. ARGENTI: First I'd like to talk 15 about Jerome Park Reservoir. I live within a block 16 of Jerome Park Reservoir, it's 125-acre reservoir 17 that is the settling distribution for the Croton 18 Watershed and Croton Aqueduct. 19 My background is that I have 30 years 20 experience working in governments and in politics, 21 and now an environmentalist in training. What we 22 discovered over ten, 20, 30 years ago, the DEP had a 23 solution for my community which was the end of the 24 pike answer to a problem that would have cheaper 25 ways of dealing with it. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 30 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 And then, as I moved on into other 3 topics in order to get allies to be along my side on 4 fighting the filtration plant, I found that many 5 more environmental issues had the same sort of 6 answers. We will take care of the end of the pike, 7 because we can do that, and that may not be the best 8 way or the cheapest way. 9 So, one of the biggest problems that 10 I see in the City in the future is how we deal with 11 our stormwater, how we deal with our stormwater up 12 in the watershed, and how we deal with that 13 stormwater down here, and Dr. Paul Mankiewicz will 14 talk about some of the scientific areas of this, but 15 from my perspective as a political science person, 16 we're approaching solving a problem and we're 17 confining ourselves to a box. The DEP is supposed to 18 take care of and treat everything that has to do 19 with water, yet we could do a lot in the City of New 20 York, to cut down on the expense of combined sewer 21 overflow building, if we captured the water before 22 it reached the water body. 23 If we built green streets, which the 24 Parks Department has to pay for, if we built basins 25 that collected the water off the highway rather than Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 31 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 let it go in Van Cortlandt Lake, which then 3 overflows the Harlem River, and then you need a CSO 4 over there. But that would be the Parks Department 5 that would have to build that. 6 So, what we're doing is we're saying 7 to the DEP, you take care of the problem, but the 8 only way you can do it is by doing it at the end of 9 the pike, because everything else before that is 10 something that another agency can take care of. 11 These things are important because it 12 would, if we can absorb the water where it rains at 13 the top of the hill, it would be better for us in 14 terms of global warming, we probably need less 15 power, because trees keep us cooler, we would 16 probably have cleaner air, and it would just be a 17 whole different way of looking at things. 18 And what I'm suggesting that the 19 Committee do is try to figure out how to solve the 20 problem, and then figure out who is going to pay for 21 it. So, it may not always be the DEP that is going 22 to take care of everything, the Parks Department 23 needs the money to take care of these things and 24 maybe the DEP should pay the Parks Department to do 25 that, or maybe the New York State Department of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 32 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Transportation should pay to take care of the runoff 3 from the Major Deegan and there's like this in every 4 district, in every area, and, so that's my 5 suggestion. 6 I also have a copy which I will leave 7 with the chair of the proclamation, which I would 8 ask the Committee to consider preparing for Clean 9 Water Act, which is going to be 30 this year. And, 10 so, there's some sample proclamations, there's one 11 that's been submitted in Congress, and there's a 12 little event that the Bronx Council for 13 Environmental Quality is holding in March, I'll get 14 that to you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 16 Karen. 17 I think that Paul's testimony is 18 going to sort of follow into yours. I'm sure he's 19 going to talk perhaps in a little more detail about 20 how we can do those buffer zones, whatever. And just 21 by way of introducing Paul, he's one of the world 22 experts on this. I know people in DEP know his work 23 very well, everybody in this field knows his work 24 very well. So, we certainly look forward to working 25 closely with Paul on these topics. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 33 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I also should mention that I teach 3 with Paul's wife Julie at Queens College, the 4 Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences. We 5 do have a little bit of a connection there as well. 6 Please give my regards to Julie and if you will just 7 give us your testimony. 8 DR. MANKIEWICZ: I'll do that. It's an 9 honor to be here. I said to Karen before, I used to 10 know the person who arranged when the speakers came 11 in order, and I didn't know what my order would be 12 today, but I see it's extremely good because of the 13 new chair, and I appreciate that all together. 14 I especially appreciate the fact that 15 there's a new history now being made in the City 16 Council, and what's in front of us is a nice 17 challenge, obviously, with budget cuts, but also a 18 nice opportunity. 19 We live in one of the largest cities 20 on the planet, with immense material flows, which 21 seem like the liabilities, the wastewater, the 22 garbage, the materials that pass through, including 23 soot from buses and the rest, that could be turned 24 into something quite different. 25 We also live in an area of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 34 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 greatest temperate zone resources on the planet from 3 the Hudson River to Jamaica Bay to the great parks 4 in the City. By way of looking at the opportunities, 5 we have centralized our technologies and we now have 6 ways to deal with problems that we literally can no 7 longer afford - multiple billion dollar combined 8 sewer solutions, multiple million dollar resurfacing 9 roadways without actually addressing pollution 10 problems, and the same kind of issues for air 11 pollution, the number of trucks in the City is way 12 beyond what we can handle with in any near term 13 solution. In other words, we're guaranteed the 14 highest asthma rates in the locale because of the 15 way we're doing business. 16 The other side of that is, every day 17 we handle something like one to two billion dollars 18 of -- under 2 billion gallons of treated waste 19 water. Every day 1.2 billion gallons of treated 20 wastewater goes into, for example, the East River 21 between Hunts Point and Newtown Creek. What are the 22 opportunities? Well, we have now one-tenth of the 23 City in parkland. Were we to actually look at 24 coupling every street tree, every street stormwater 25 with stormwater discharge, or capture, with the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 35 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 growth of trees, then the fact that every other tree 3 dies because it doesn't have water might be 4 addressed. 5 In other words, if we were to 6 distribute water to where it can do some good, where 7 the high one micron particles concentrations that 8 actually cause asthma, tentative micron particles 9 actually cause asthma, kill people every year, the 10 largest filters on the planet are the cheese (sic) 11 and the soils. We should actually put those, as 12 their doing in Holland, Belgium and other countries, 13 where the people are, where they can do some good 14 filtering air. 15 I sat on the Mayor's brownfield task 16 force and there was a real disinterest in the 17 groundwater, as you pointed out earlier, of New York 18 City, as well as rebuilding anything like the 19 natural infrastructure of the City. But I think it's 20 something that only the City Council can do, and 21 only through its division of its Environmental 22 Committee. 23 For example, we process something 24 like 2.6 million yards of organic material every day 25 in New York City. If you look at the total amount Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 36 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 for a year, that's something like a million tons a 3 year, it costs us now $70 a ton to ship to 4 Pennsylvania to landfills. That same quantity of 5 material, in other words, it's about six percent or 6 so of the entire deficit we have right now, we could 7 use that same material to restore the thousands of 8 acres of brownfields in New York City. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: What kind of 10 material are you talking about? 11 DR. MANKIEWICZ: Basically organic 12 waste that now the City is taking to Pennsylvania, 13 except for the fraction of pumpkins and Christmas 14 trees and all that it composts. 15 We have built a park, you have a 16 picture, I'm sorry I didn't have enough and my 17 printer jammed, but there are a few up there, I will 18 get you some more, I have a small park that will be 19 built in City Island, we're building one in Jamaica, 20 right next to Jamaica Bay, actually in East New York 21 presently, and the concept is to utilize the organic 22 waste stream to restore brownfields, to capture 23 water, to basically make parks in areas where there 24 are virtually no parks, East New York, Brownsville, 25 and in Jamaica. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 37 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The idea is -- 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If I could just 4 jump in a second. I'm sorry to interrupt, but 5 hopefully some of my comments may help some of my 6 colleagues. 7 I thought that all of the compost, 8 from like the sewer sludge and they dry it and 9 pelletize it and do whatever they do to it, I 10 thought that all went to beneficial reuse and it 11 wasn't landfilled; doesn't it go to beneficial use? 12 DR. MANKIEWICZ: There is a great deal 13 that does right now. There is also a great deal in 14 the City that doesn't. Most of the organics are not 15 actually composted, because unlike the paper 16 recycling program, that created jobs in New York and 17 takes one-half of our waste stream, we haven't, the 18 City Council hasn't, the Mayor hasn't looked at how 19 that aspect, that side of the waste stream to be a 20 value-added product. So, only the simplest things to 21 compost, the cheese and the pumpkins that are 22 handled, and that's a small fraction. That 26,000 23 tons per day is actually about half of the City's 24 total produce counting the commercial waste stream. 25 Just by way of indication, if you take all the water Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 38 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 output from the wells in Jamaica, all that could be 3 filtered through, the logistics are, of course, 4 difficult, but all that could be filtered through 5 bio-geochemical filters (phonetic) created out of 6 natural materials, compost and the rest, at a much 7 higher labor input, but basically a way of creating 8 jobs in parks that would also clean air and water. 9 MS. ARGENTI: Like the eggs and the 10 coffee grinds and stuff like that that comes right 11 out of the house, and vegetable, produce -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, but we have 13 like source separate organics and household 14 separation of organics. 15 I would also like to point out, I 16 guess I should have mentioned earlier, this 17 Committee used to speak to sanitation issues. We 18 have a separated committee created for that on which 19 I serve, perhaps some of these issues I could sort 20 of carry my briefcase to that hearing as well, and 21 maybe we might have you there to talk about some of 22 those issues as well, sort of like a natural bridge 23 between these issues. 24 But I know that you do a lot of your 25 work with DEP and also with doing the restoration Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 39 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 and the Pelham Bay landfill and so on, right? 3 DR. MANKIEWICZ: That's right. DEP, as 4 well as other -- I should mention I was the Chair of 5 the Bronx Solid Waste Advisory Board when some of 6 the composting got started a number of years back. 7 And what Karen said earlier I think has to be a 8 general rule, we have no integrating force to handle 9 the huge waste stream, the wastewater stream and the 10 huge pollutant stream that we produce, except that 11 the City Council can literally fabricate itself, and 12 all natural systems are integrated, the material 13 flows are what we need to integrate into literally 14 the capacity to clean the air and the water. 15 By way of example, every brownfield 16 is covered with ragweed, every plant on that acre, 17 this is 8 billion pollen grains per hour, a thousand 18 for every citizen in New York, if we keep up our 19 ignoring of brownfields, if we don't redevelop them 20 and actually make them into natural systems that can 21 work for us, as housing, as parks, as commercial 22 developments, we're guaranteeing the respiratory 23 impact on citizens in the City. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I'll tell you 25 what, to the extent that you could, you know, show Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 40 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 us how some of your technology and some of your 3 thoughts could help us do brownfields better in New 4 York City, that would really be helpful, I don't 5 know about the source separation, or the household 6 source separation of organics, but other stuff that 7 comes out of the sewage treatment plants and 8 whatever, anything that we can do to help brownfield 9 development in the City, a real sort of, you know, 10 practical application of, you know, stuff that we do 11 now, that would be most helpful. 12 Did you have any further testimony? 13 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Mr. 14 Chairman? 15 DR. MANKIEWICZ: Just very simply -- 16 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Just before 17 he goes, there's a question about something he said 18 I just want him to repeat for me. 19 Can you just repeat your testimony 20 with regards to the filtration of the Jamaica Water, 21 something you said there, I didn't hear it. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You know what 23 I'll do? I'm really not prepared to open this up to 24 other questions from other members until the 25 testimony is complete. So, once you're testimony is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 41 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 complete, I will be happy to entertain questions 3 from the members on the testimony. 4 DR. MANKIEWICZ: In the watershed of 5 New York City, Catskill and Delaware, as well as 6 Croton, as well as in the City itself, we invest in 7 centralized solutions but we don't look at the 8 distributed way of capturing and treating water. 9 For example, the Patagut basin 10 (phonetic) and in Flushing we built for some hundred 11 million dollars treatment facilities, catchment 12 facilities for combined sewer. Some similar amount 13 of money, or probably much, much less could be used 14 to create French drains, literally drain pipes with 15 holes in them, around deeper tree pits on City 16 blocks to ensure the growth and development of the 17 trees, it actually adds value to every household 18 property in the City. 19 This also needs to be done in the 20 Croton Watershed, vis-a-vis we're looking at ways to 21 treat the water at the end of the pike, but there's 22 thousands of miles of roadway with erosion reels 23 (phonetic) going right down into the east branch, 24 the west branch and the water that we drink. The 25 same thing is true in the Catskill and Delaware. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 42 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 We need to actually look at how to 3 add compost to the edge of our roadways, for 4 example, as they do in the State of Maine, Oregon 5 and Washington, to clean the water. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, thank you. 7 Would that conclude your testimony? 8 DR. MANKIEWICZ: It does. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I just want to 10 let the folks know here on the panel that we've been 11 working with DEP on their stormwater management 12 plan, it's something that the EPA definitely wants 13 us to do more of, and to the extent that you have 14 some value that you can bring to that, that's fine. 15 We want to move on to the next 16 witness, although I know people have some questions, 17 but just by way of explanation, not all the members 18 of the community may know what a CSO is. A CSO is a 19 combined sewer overflow. About 60, 65 percent of the 20 City is serviced by what we call combined sewers in 21 that you have your sanitary sewer in your home and 22 your storm drain in the street, get both funneled 23 into the same sewage treatment plant and that works 24 very well in dry weather, but in wet weather the 25 sewage treatment plans are overwhelmed with all the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 43 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 stormwater, the rainwater that is coming in through 3 the drain, and at a certain point, once the sewage 4 treatment plans reach full capacity and you can't 5 take any more water, that water has to be bypassed. 6 The sanitary waste and the stormwaste 7 bypasses the sewage treatment plant and goes out 8 into the bay, and in some places in the City, such 9 as the Patagat Basin, such as by Flushing Meadow 10 Park where the water would go into a very still body 11 of water that doesn't get a lot of natural 12 circulation, we're building these underground tanks 13 to sort of store this overflow until the dry weather 14 comes and that gets fed through the sewage treatment 15 plants during dry weather. So, I just didn't want 16 any of the terminology to be used here on the 17 Committee to sort of get past any of the members, 18 who not all of whom are going to be completely up to 19 speed on all these sort of arcane concepts. So, 20 that's what a CSO is. 21 If there are any questions for these 22 witnesses, I would be happy to entertain them. 23 Council Member Jennings has something 24 to ask. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Before I ask Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 44 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 my question, just could you go over your testimony 3 with regards to the statements you made around 4 Jamaica Water earlier. 5 DR. MANKIEWICZ: I was stating that 6 the area -- the largest filter on the planet is 7 soils, there is actually not that large a quantity 8 of water in the Jamaica aquifer, and one could 9 filter major quantities of it with basically wetland 10 soil systems, parklands that you could build 11 actually right in the area where you're relatively 12 devoid of parks to start with. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: So, in which 14 location would you suggest that system be placed? 15 DR. MANKIEWICZ: It's not a 16 centralized system, basically places where you need 17 parks, where you have brownfields, where 18 redevelopment would make a difference for property 19 values. You could place them there, and you're not 20 looking at anything greater than the acreage of 21 brownfields that you have in the area. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: With regards 23 to catchment facilities, are you aware of any 24 catchment facilities in Jamaica Queens? 25 DR. MANKIEWICZ: Well, every park and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 45 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 greenspace behaves that way, but there's none that 3 have been specifically designed for that. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: But there is 5 one designed for Flushing? 6 DR. MANKIEWICZ: That's right, and 7 also Patagut -- 8 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Also where? 9 DR. MANKIEWICZ: Patagut Basin. In 10 Patagut Basin in Brooklyn there's a large 11 underground facility that's been built. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thanks very 14 much. We have to kind of be moving on. We're going 15 to other witnesses, and thanks very much. 16 The next witness will be Michael 17 Lockhart. 18 Mr. Lockhart, thanks for coming. 19 Allison Rosen will administer the 20 oath, and then I would like you to give your name 21 for the record and proceed with your testimony. 22 MS. ROSEN: Do you solemnly swear or 23 affirm that the testimony you are about to give is 24 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 25 truth? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 46 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 MR. LOCKHART: I do. 3 MS. ROSEN: Please state your name and 4 affiliation for the record. 5 MR. LOCKHART: Good morning. My name 6 is Michael Lockhart. I am the President of American 7 Telephone and Utility Consultants -- 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I think your 9 microphone is off. The light should be out. 10 MR. LOCKHART: Test, test. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 12 MR. LOCKHART: Good morning. Mr. 13 Chairman, it's an honor and a pleasure to be before 14 you speaking at your Committee here, and I thank you 15 very much for inviting me to testify. 16 As I said, I'm President of American 17 Telephone and Utility Consultants, a company that 18 has been auditing utility bills since 1990. I'm also 19 founder and Chairman of the Coalition for Water Bill 20 Justice, which is a grassroots organization that 21 represents water customers, businesses, building 22 owners and civic associations throughout New York 23 City. 24 The Coalition was established in 25 April 2000 to advocate fair billing practices for Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 47 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 New York City water customers. 3 At a Water Board meeting last summer, 4 DEP revealed the following statistics concerning the 5 City's 826,000 metered water customers: 6 - seventy-five thousand water 7 customers currently need repair or replacement. 8 - 50,000 outstanding work orders, 9 including Leak and Waste Inspection and Reading 10 Verifications. 11 - 1,800 DEP contractor meter 12 replacements need inspection. 13 - 600 plumber-installed meters need 14 inspection. 15 The consequences of these statistics 16 are startling. A backlog of 75,000 broken meters 17 translates into 75,000 guesstimated bills. Many of 18 which end up becoming billing disputes with 19 customers. 20 And even worse now during the drought 21 situation, when a meter stops recording the actual 22 usage, the property owner loses his or her incentive 23 to conserve water. That's because no matter how much 24 they use, they end up getting a bill based on 25 historical usage, rather than real usage. Therefore, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 48 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 there's little motivation to conserve. 3 Furthermore, with a broken meter you 4 lose the ability to determine if there are leaks on 5 the premise, since a water meter is one of the best 6 tools in the industry for determining leaks. 7 And lastly, the 50,000 outstanding 8 work orders, including Leak and Waste Inspections, 9 means that a tremendous amount of customers are 10 continuously wasting water, while they await 11 assistance from DEP in identifying leaks and waste. 12 By the way, I am unaware of the 13 updated statistics. Hopefully they have improved, 14 but I fear that they have not. And I suggest that 15 could be a question for the Water Board. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Sure. And also 17 if I could just jump in for a second, I guess this 18 will be something for the other witnesses, as well. 19 Of course, this is our first hearing, and already 20 with your testimony we have something we can use 21 when DEP gets up and talk about the 75,000 water 22 meters that need to be fixed, but to the extent that 23 all the witnesses can sort of keep in mind that 24 we're looking for ideas that this Committee can 25 pursue over the next year, you know, things that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 49 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 should be added to our agenda. Certainly this fits 3 in with that. I just want everyone to sort of bear 4 that in mind and sort of focus on those points, that 5 we should put on our agenda and kind of summarize 6 the agenda and get to those succinct areas, you've 7 already given us a real good one. 8 MR. LOCKHART: Okay. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So with that in 10 mind, I will just ask people to proceed, we have to 11 kind of move things along a little bit because I 12 know that yours is the kind of testimony that people 13 are going to have a lot of questions about, and we 14 have to kind of move things forward. 15 Go on, please. 16 MR. LOCKHART: Okay. 17 Although both residential and 18 commercial landlords have little control over the 19 bathroom habits of their tenants, there are still 20 things that could be done to encouraged 21 conservation, and the following are two suggestions 22 that DEP can undertake to induce conservation and 23 perhaps this Committee can help with that effort. 24 First of all, DEP should quickly roll 25 out and promote the Toilet Rebate Program and offer Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 50 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 it to all customers large and small, not just the 3 ones participating in their new multi-family 4 conservation program. 5 I suggested this about one year ago 6 the last time I testified before this Committee, and 7 it's been talked about at Water Board hearings, but 8 is still yet to be implemented. 9 2. I encourage the installation of 10 low-consumption -- DEP should encourage the 11 installation of low-consumption toilets, faucets and 12 showerheads through rate plan design. Currently 13 customers pay one rate. If you're a metered customer 14 everybody pays the same exact rate, so what I'm 15 talking about here is offering a discount that could 16 be offered to low-consumption fixture compliant 17 properties on metered billing, and I've offered a 18 table here that I'll just briefly describe. 19 Essentially for buildings that have 100 percent of 20 their fixtures in compliance, fixtures meaning 21 toilets, showerheads, and faucets. They would get up 22 to a 25 percent discount, and if only 90 percent are 23 compliant, they would get a 20 percent discount, and 24 the discount decreases down to zero, if they have 25 below 60 percent of their property in compliance. I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 51 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 suggest that this could either be phased in over a 3 period of five years, or maybe administratively it 4 would be easier to do it in one shot, however, I 5 would suggest that a grace period be instituted that 6 gives building owners a time to plan for this 7 installation of low-consumption fixtures. 8 And by the way, this idea could be 9 handled similar to the way the annual surcharge was 10 handled for frontage properties that refuse to put 11 in water meters. And for those who are not aware, 12 property owners who were surcharged twice their 13 frontage bill, for those who weren't in compliance, 14 a similar kind of concept. 15 One might argue that the current rate 16 design already encourages owners to install 17 low-consumption fixtures, since the more they use, 18 the more they pay. However, since a significant 19 portion of properties don't have low consumption 20 fixtures, one can presume that the current rate 21 design is insufficiently offering enough of an 22 inducement to install low-consumption fixtures. 23 From the feedback I had received over 24 the years, here are some of the reasons why owner 25 managers resist installation of low-consumption Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 52 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 fixtures. Owner managers doubt that their bills will 3 actually decrease significantly to make the effort 4 worthwhile, and with the two-rate system that I 5 proposed, the savings will then be indisputable. 6 2. Some owner/managers have heard 7 tales about low-consumption toilets requiring 8 several flushes to be effective, thus causing the 9 consumption to increase, rather than decrease. 10 3. Low-flow showerheads also gain the 11 poorly deserved reputation of restricting water too 12 greatly. 13 And, four, owner/managers aren't able 14 to outlay money to change fixtures. 15 By instituting a new rate structure 16 that more strongly encourages the installation of 17 low-consumption fixtures, such as the one I propose, 18 the above four objections would be overcome, since 19 they will be indisputable savings that 20 owner/managers would see on their bills. 21 With better weather and more 22 aggressive conservation efforts, hopefully future 23 droughts could be prevented or at least delayed. 24 Although the drought is clearly the 25 most important issue concerning water at this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 53 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 juncture, there are still many other important 3 issues that I hope this new Committee will address. 4 First, the water customers continue 5 to be overcharged frequently, and second, and worst 6 of all, 800,000 water customers citywide face a 7 growing assortment of what many critics consider to 8 be unfair policies and limitations. 9 An example is a provision allowing 10 water to be shut off to residences with unpaid 11 bills, which raises ethical and safety issues. 12 Another example is DEP's refusal to 13 pay interest on customer refunds, despite charging 14 customers interest on unpaid bills. 15 And with regard to the shut-off 16 policy, I realize that the Water Board needs to 17 improve collections in order to keep water rates 18 down. I also understand that this current Water 19 Board and DEP administration adopted the shut-off 20 regulation with the intent to use it mostly against 21 commercial properties and not against residential 22 customers. 23 However, my concern is that one day a 24 more aggressive Water Board decides to use this 25 life-threatening weapon against residential Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 54 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 customers. Therefore, if this regulation is only 3 intended for commercial properties, let's rewrite it 4 specifically to exclude residential properties and 5 close that loophole. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If I could, 7 Michael, I just want to jump in here. I just want 8 folks to know that with regard to water rates, it's 9 of course a Water Board thing, we can't legislate 10 water rates from this bully-pulpit here. 11 MR. LOCKHART: Right. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We can advocate 13 for it. We can do resolutions, you know, regarding 14 -- maybe that's what you're recommending, certainly 15 we have a lot to say on this. 16 MR. LOCKHART: Yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But certainly to 18 the extent that we can actually do some of these 19 things that you're outlining here we're a little bit 20 hamstrung. But certainly the early part of your 21 testimony, you certainly make a very strong case for 22 the discounts and so on, because lots of people are 23 not using these low-flow fixtures, notwithstanding 24 the fact that they're paying for all the water that 25 they use. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 55 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 If I could just ask you to sum up 3 your testimony at this point? 4 MR. LOCKHART: Okay. 5 With regard to the power of this 6 Committee, let me say that when I do lobbying up in 7 Albany to ask for bills to be introduced and passed, 8 they want to know how this Committee feels. This 9 Committee is very important to them, although it is 10 more of a bully-pulpit, as you put it, it really 11 does have a lot of weight upon their minds up there. 12 They like to know how you feel about it. 13 And just to sum up, there's one other 14 point, it used to be consumers used to have six 15 years to challenge bills, and DEP lowered it to two 16 years, and there was a compromise legislation that 17 now it's at four years, and we're not giving up 18 until it goes back to six years, and since we're in 19 a hurry, I'll just leave you with my testimony that 20 explains the reasons why that's important. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I would also ask 22 now about the six year, four year, two year, now DEP 23 can challenge six years back, but we can only go 24 back four years, is that it? 25 MR. LOCKHART: Well, right at the very Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 56 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 moment, consumers have four years to challenge 3 billing errors. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 5 MR. LOCKHART: And DEP is about to 6 change their regulations so they can backfill 7 customers four years. Right now they can only 8 backfill two years, and they want to level the 9 playing field, and my comments to that is the 10 playing field is already slanted to their favor and 11 should not be leveled in that manner. And the reason 12 for that is it's their meters, their meter testing 13 equipment, you know, their billing system. If they 14 can't issue a bill within two years, I think that 15 shouldn't be the consumer's problem. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you very 17 much. 18 MR. LOCKHART: Thank you very much. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I would like to 20 recognize Council Member Jennings, who has a 21 question. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Good 23 morning, Mr. Lockhart. 24 MR. LOCKHART: Good morning. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: I would like Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 57 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to say that your comments are right in regards to 3 our responsibility as a legislative body in the City 4 Council that we can put forth a resolution to this 5 date on your recommendations. So, you may present us 6 with that after the hearing to the Chairman and 7 myself and any other Committee members with regards 8 to that idea. 9 I want to talk about the toilet 10 rebate program for a minute. 11 MR. LOCKHART: Okay. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Back in 13 1995, we did have I think a really serious and 14 extensive toilet rebate program that lasted for 15 about one year; are you familiar with that toilet 16 rebate program? 17 MR. LOCKHART: Yes, I am. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Could you 19 tell us, in your own opinion, how successful you 20 thought that program was? 21 MR. LOCKHART: I think it was 22 moderately successful. Many buildings didn't take 23 advantage of it. There are different reasons at that 24 time why they didn't take advantage of it. I listed 25 four reasons why I felt that people resisted putting Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 58 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in toilets. There's probably a fifth reason, and I 3 didn't put it in to confuse things, but back then 4 people were on frontage and they didn't really care 5 so much about saving water. Now that they're on 6 metered billing, there's more of an incentive there. 7 So, it's the right move to force people onto meter 8 -- 9 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: How about 10 with regards to residential homes? I remember many 11 communities taking advantage of this program at the 12 time. 13 MR. LOCKHART: You know, I honestly 14 couldn't tell you statistically how many people took 15 advantage of that program. I've never heard any 16 statistics, but I believe it was, I would describe 17 it as moderately successful, meaning that, you know, 18 probably, this is purely a guess, but I would say 19 maybe a third to half of the people that should have 20 taken advantage of it did. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And the 22 showerheads, I believe at that time DEP provided 23 free showerheads for residents. 24 MR. LOCKHART: That's correct. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Are you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 59 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 aware of any showerhead program now being done by 3 DEP? 4 MR. LOCKHART: No, actually, I'm not 5 aware of that. 6 If there is a program, I could tell 7 you it's not well publicized. I searched over the 8 entire website this weekend looking for an update to 9 make sure my testimony was up to date and that the 10 toilet rebate program hadn't been rolled out without 11 my knowledge, and I know that's definitely not 12 rolled out at this moment. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Right. Back 14 in 1995 they were giving $10, if you installed the 15 toilets you get a full complete refund back. 16 Going to tenants and conservation, 17 which I think is an important issue for landlords 18 particularly, especially with multi-dwelling. 19 Currently landlords are not able to force tenants to 20 conserve water. If you have a three-family house or 21 a two-family house or a four-family house, the 22 landlord pays the bills, he has no control whether 23 the tenant keeps the shower on all day long, puts on 24 the dishwasher and washes dishes all day long. The 25 only thing you can conserve, is to have control over Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 60 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 if someone uses lawn or uses his own shower. But 3 with regards to the landlords, do you think it may 4 be a good idea that some type of system is advised, 5 and we have a multi-dwelling home, like a two-family 6 home, or a three-family or a four-family home, that 7 maybe separate meters should be placed to measure 8 water use in particular apartments? 9 MR. LOCKHART: It's an interesting 10 question. I only know of one company that has a 11 product like that. The problem with plumbing, is 12 that unlike electricity, which is, you know, 13 basically what you're describing is something 14 similar to how electric meters are distributed in a 15 multiple dwelling, where each tenant has their own 16 meter, all the electricity comes in at one circuit 17 breaker panel, with water it doesn't work that way, 18 and in an apartment that has let's say a 19 one-bathroom and one kitchen, that's going to be on 20 a separate riser, and you would basically almost 21 need two meters in that apartment to cover that, 22 likewise if there were a two-bathroom apartment, you 23 would then need three, one for each bathroom, and 24 then one for the kitchen, because there is no one 25 point of access plumbing-wise into that apartment. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 61 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Which is why I think your point is excellent, that 3 landlords don't really have control over this, so 4 it's kind of a precarious position, because they 5 can't force their tenants to take shorter showers. 6 But you can, landlords can do something by 7 installing low-flow fixtures. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, I'm going 9 to have to kind of stop it there. These are issues 10 that we could take up. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you, 12 Mr. Lockhart. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: These are issues 14 that we can take up at a more detailed hearing that 15 we have on this subject. 16 Also, I would like to remind everyone 17 who wants to testify to fill out a little slip, if 18 they can go see the Sergeant-At-Arms, and I had 19 indicated that I was going to put the Commissioner 20 on at about this time, I'd like to do that now. 21 There are a couple of more witnesses 22 which we'll take after DEP completes their 23 testimony. I also would like to remind anyone who 24 wants to testify, you have to fill out a slip with 25 the Sergeant-At-Arms. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 62 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 So, if the good folks from DEP could 3 take their places. 4 Commissioner, welcome. I just would 5 like to say hi while your team is being assembled 6 there. 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Good morning. How 8 are you? 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Good morning. 10 Is Charlie going to be joining you at 11 the witness table? Okay, good. 12 Okay, thank you very much for coming. 13 I appreciate that. As I indicated earlier, before 14 the testimony begins we're asking the witnesses to 15 take an oath, we're doing that for all of our 16 witnesses. And Allison Rosen will give the oath, 17 after which we will ask you to state your name for 18 the record, and proceed with your testimony. But 19 welcome, it's a real pleasure to have you here 20 today. 21 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's a pleasure 22 to be here. 23 MS. ROSEN: Please raise your right 24 hand. 25 Do you solemnly swear or affirm that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 63 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the 3 whole truth and nothing but the truth? 4 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I do. 5 MS. ROSEN: Please state your name and 6 affiliation for the record. 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Good morning, Mr. 8 Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is Joel 9 A. Miele, Sr., and I'm Commissioner of the New York 10 City Department of Environmental Protection. 11 Shall I proceed? 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I appreciate the 14 opportunity to testify before the Committee 15 concerning the City's water supply system. 16 In view of the drought conditions 17 we're now encountering caused by low precipitation 18 over the last six months, this hearing is a valuable 19 opportunity for me to update the Committee and the 20 public on our current situation with respect to 21 water supply, and on the importance of conserving 22 our valuable potable water. 23 The first few minutes of my prepared 24 testimony are devoted to an overview of the water 25 supply system. Although I recognize that Chairman Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 64 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Gennaro is well acquainted with many of the facts of 3 our water supply system, it may be useful to other 4 members of the public if I first lay out some of the 5 basic facts about how the City obtains this drinking 6 water. 7 After that introduction, I will 8 review consumption patterns and what the City has 9 done to manage water demands. 10 And, finally, I will discuss the 11 City's drought management activities and our plans 12 for the coming weeks and months. 13 New York City is supplied with water 14 from three large surface water systems upstate, and 15 by one much smaller system of groundwater wells 16 within the City. 17 These wells were formerly owned and 18 operated by the Jamaica Water Supply Company, the 19 last private water company in the five boroughs. 20 Just to be very clear, let me explain 21 the terms "groundwater" and "surface water." 22 Groundwater refers to water contained 23 in an underground layer of rock, sand or gravel. 24 These layers are known as aquifers; water is pumped 25 from the aquifers via wells. Nassau and Suffolk Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 65 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 County is served by groundwater pumped to the 3 surface using a system of wells. The aquifers that 4 lie underneath Long Island also extend beneath 5 Brooklyn and Queens. The Brooklyn/Queens aquifer, or 6 aquifers, since there are several layers of water 7 that together comprise that aquifer, is the source 8 of water for wells that the City owns and operates 9 in Southeastern Queens. 10 Surface water systems rely on streams 11 and rivers that are dammed or diverted to create 12 reservoirs. More than 99 percent of the City's dam 13 supply comes from the surface water systems created 14 upstate. 15 To a greater degree than aquifers, 16 especially deep ones, surface water systems are very 17 sensitive to changes in precipitation. 18 The City's water supply system not 19 only serves all five boroughs, it also provides 20 water to approximately one-million people who live 21 outside of the City. The City is required by State 22 law to provide water to residents of any of the 23 eight upstate counties in which our surface water 24 supplies are located. 25 As a result, approximately 85 percent Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 66 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of the water consumed in Westchester County is 3 provided from the City's system, as is approximately 4 seven and a half percent of the water consumed in 5 Ulster, Orange and Putnam Counties. 6 The City's three surface water 7 systems are, beginning with the largest, the 8 Delaware, the Catskill and the Croton. Considered 9 together, these three systems have a combined 10 storage capacity of approximately 550 billion 11 gallons in 18 reservoirs and three controlled lakes. 12 The major elements of the City's 13 system are shown in the maps contained in the blue 14 folder submitted to members, along with copies of my 15 statement. 16 One map shows all three systems on a 17 single page. I have had that map mounted on one of 18 the display boards I brought with me this morning. 19 The other two maps show close-ups, the single 20 East-of-Hudson Watershed, the Croton, is shown on 21 one map; and, both West-of-Hudson watersheds, the 22 Catskill and the Delaware, are combined on another. 23 The capacity of the various 24 reservoirs are shown in a table that is also 25 contained in your blue folder. In 2001, this system Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 67 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 supplied, on average, 1313 million, or 1.313 billion 3 gallons of water per day. Of that amount, the City 4 consumed 1184 million gallons per day, and the 5 Upstate users were responsible for the other 129 6 million gallons per day of usage. 7 Typically the Delaware system 8 provides 55 percent of the City's daily needs, the 9 Catskill system provides 35 percent, and the Croton 10 system provides 10 percent. 11 Those figures change as necessary, 12 depending on precipitation patterns, variations in 13 water quality, or repair work at one of the 14 components of the system. 15 For example, later in my statement 16 you will hear that one of the actions the City takes 17 during a drought is maximizing the use of the Croton 18 system. During times of abundant rainfall, the City 19 does not normally use all of the water generated in 20 the Croton Watershed. 21 Part of the reason for that is 22 relative quality. The Catskill and Delaware systems 23 generally provide higher quality water, so where we 24 have a choice we use as much water from those 25 systems as we can. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 68 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The other reason is hydraulic. One of 3 the marvels of the City's water system is that, for 4 the most part, we don't have to move the water 5 ourselves, we let gravity do it. 6 We have to build and maintain the 7 conduits for the water to flow in, but the 8 reservoirs are built uphill from the City, so the 9 water moves to the City under the force of gravity. 10 However, the City can pull more water 11 from Croton by pumping it. 12 Although the Croton system is the 13 smallest of the other systems, it refills more 14 rapidly than the larger reservoirs West-of-Hudson. 15 So when the bigger reservoirs are dry, the Croton 16 reservoirs may still have plenty of water, but it 17 has to be pumped to get it out of the reservoirs as 18 fast as we wish. 19 Pumping Croton water is the key 20 element of the drought management plan, which I will 21 discuss later. 22 In addition to the tunnels, aqueducts 23 and reservoir systems depicted on the maps, there 24 are features in the water supply system which allow 25 for contingency and emergency operations. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 69 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Several interconnections exist 3 between the reservoir systems. These 4 interconnections are employed at times when we want 5 to transfer water from one system to another in 6 response to localized water quality or quantity 7 concerns. 8 The water supplied from the well 9 system that the City acquired from the Jamaica Water 10 Supply Company is also distributed through water 11 mains that are connected with the upstate surface 12 water system. 13 A number of wells regularly 14 supplement the surface water system while others are 15 available only for emergency use. 16 And, finally, a pumping station on 17 the Hudson River at Chelsea New York is also 18 connected with the Delaware aqueduct. 19 In the more advanced stages of a 20 drought, the Chelsea pumping station is capable of 21 supplementing other City supplies by pumping up to 22 100 million gallons a day of Hudson River water into 23 the Delaware aqueduct at Shaft 6. 24 Excluding the groundwater system, and 25 excluding the Chelsea pumping station, the City's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 70 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 water system can provide a safe yield, also referred 3 to as a dependable yield, of 1290 million gallons 4 per day. Safe yield or dependable yield is a water 5 industry term that means the amount of water a 6 system can provide should there be a recurrence of 7 the worst drought on record. 8 In our case that was the drought of 9 the mid-1960s. The safe yield is not a completely 10 static number. It could change as a result of 11 re-estimation based on future droughts, or it could 12 be modified because of changes in the City's 13 obligations in the Delaware River basin, changes in 14 the amount of conservation releases, or changes in 15 operating policies. 16 The Delaware River Basin obligations 17 in particular have a very substantial impact on the 18 City's water supply. The precise extent of those 19 obligations is a subject too complex for me to 20 address at any length in today's statement, but they 21 bear mentioning since they're an important external 22 constraint on the amount of water the City can draw 23 from the impounded tributaries of the Delaware 24 River. And the impounded tributaries of the Delaware 25 River are responsible for around half of what the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 71 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 City needs. 3 Given a safe yield of 1290 MGD, or 4 1313 MGD, if you add in the Queens wells, City 5 officials began to be concerned as water demand 6 climbed, by about one percent a year through the 7 fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. 8 By 1988 the total demand on the 9 City's supply, including upstate uses, had climbed 10 to 1610 MGD on average. 11 When the demand for water is 12 persistently above what the system can dependently 13 provide, years of below-normal rainfall become more 14 alarming. 15 Any drought is a function of two 16 factors: the supply of water and the demand for 17 water. 18 Having reviewed the supply of water 19 available from our system, I have arrived at the 20 second topic in my remarks this morning: managing 21 water demand. 22 By the 1960s the City's water 23 consumption was already beyond the dependable yield. 24 The most severe drought of record was during the 25 1960s. There were also three droughts which occurred Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 72 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 in the eighties. 3 Around the same time, wastewater 4 flows to a couple of key sewage treatment plants 5 either exceeded or approached the permitted capacity 6 of the plants. Avoiding the capital cost of 7 expanding the water supply, and wastewater treatment 8 infrastructures, as well as the other "drought 9 costs," led the City to develop a battery of 10 programs to reduce consumption and to keep us out of 11 the droughts. 12 I will briefly highlight three of the 13 more significant successful programs: metering, leak 14 detection, and the toilet rebate program. 15 By 1985 all commercial buildings and 16 approximately 15 percent of residential buildings 17 were metered. Commercial buildings have long been 18 required to have meters and pay charges based on 19 real consumption. 20 In 1985, some residential properties 21 were metered because they were at one time served by 22 a private water company that required metering, as 23 do many private water companies. 24 Other residential buildings had 25 metered voluntarily because they saw that billing on Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 73 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 a frontage formula was more expensive than being 3 billed for actual use. Frontage billing is 4 fixed-rate billing, meaning the charges don't vary 5 with the amount of water used. Frontage accounts are 6 billed only once a year in advance because the size 7 of the bill is not based on water use within the 8 building. It is based on "frontage" or the width of 9 a building, with other factors, such as the number 10 of plumbing fixtures also included in the equation. 11 Frontage billing obviously does not offer any 12 incentive to save water. So, by 1988 the City began 13 a compulsory "Universal Metering Program" which is 14 now 94 percent complete. 15 Metering is an absolutely essential 16 tool to control water use, and to make property 17 owners economically accountable, in some degree, for 18 the amount of water used with their property. 19 Although the road to completion of 20 the metering program has sometimes been rocky, and 21 the distribution of costs amongst building classes 22 subject to vigorous debate, it is absolutely 23 inarguable that the City's goal of controlling water 24 consumption was significantly advanced by the 25 metering program. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 74 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Over the long term, metering could 3 save the City as much as 200 million gallons per 4 day. 5 Since 1986, DEP has been conducting 6 extensive sonar leak detection of the City's water 7 mains. By the early 1990s, the entire 6,000 miles of 8 water main in the City were being surveyed at least 9 once every three years. 10 The areas of the City served by 11 sewage treatment plants at or near their permit 12 limits were being surveyed more frequently. 13 At present, one-third of the City's 14 water mains are scanned every year, while the 15 remainder are on a three-year cycle. 16 The amount of piping surveyed by the 17 City has steadily increased. In Fiscal Year 1986, 18 the City surveyed approximately 5 million linear 19 feet. By Fiscal Year 2001, DEP surveyed 20 approximately 23 million linear feet of water mains. 21 The cumulative impact of the sonar 22 leak detection program has been to reduce the number 23 of leaks discovered in the system by almost 90 24 percent, and to prevent minor leaks from becoming 25 major ones. In the early years of the program, sonar Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 75 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 leak detection was saving water in the range of 25 3 million gallons per day. Now that the major leaks 4 have already been investigated and repaired, 5 systemwide savings are more modest in the range of 6 an additional ten to 15 million gallons a day. 7 In March of 1994, DEP began a program 8 that provided a financial incentive for property 9 owners to replace old toilets and showerheads. It 10 has long been known that most residential water use 11 occurs in the bathroom and that older toilets using 12 six or seven gallons per flush were a major water 13 user. 14 Since newer low-flush models were 15 widely available, the City realized that it could 16 save water and lower the cost of operating 17 wastewater treatment plants, if property owners were 18 to replace older fixtures. The Toilet Rebate Program 19 began in the Bronx in March of 1994, and expanded 20 Citywide later that year. 21 By its conclusion in 1997, the 22 program was responsible for replacing 1.3 million 23 toilets in 110,000 properties, thereby saving the 24 City between 70 and 90 million gallons per day. 25 In addition to the above, the New Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 76 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 York City Housing Authority has begun the systematic 3 replacement of 100,000 toilets and showerheads in 4 areas of the City served by sewage treatment plants 5 that have been at or near their permitted 6 capacities. Estimated savings from that program are 7 another ten to 20 million gallons per day. 8 Through these three programs, and a 9 variety of other ones, including hydrant locking, 10 water audits and public education, the City has 11 achieved a significant reduction in water 12 consumption. 13 1991 was a peak year for consumption. 14 That year consumption in the City was nearly 1,500 15 MGD. Since then, consumption has been steadily 16 declining. 17 In Fiscal Year 2001, consumption was 18 on average approximately 1,200 MDG, a drop over ten 19 years of 20 percent. 20 We have another chart with us that 21 shows a 20-year history of consumption. 22 Even with the significant decrease in 23 water use within the City, the system remains 24 sensitive to fluctuations in precipitation, which 25 leads me to the final topic in my statement and the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 77 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 specific reason why we're here today, drought. 3 Although everyone knows that a 4 drought is generally a period of low precipitation 5 and declining water levels, the word "drought" has a 6 more specific meaning for those of us at DEP and to 7 our regulators in Albany and Washington. 8 So, first let me pose and then answer 9 the following basic question, what is a drought, and 10 how do you know when you're having one? 11 In 1998, New York City filed with the 12 New York State Department of Health an updated 13 drought management plan, which I will refer to as 14 "the plan" in the remainder of my statement. 15 The plan is the formal document that 16 defines droughts for the City of New York. The plan 17 identifies three drought stages, drought watch, 18 drought warning, and drought emergency. 19 The drought emergency is further 20 subdivided into four sub-stages, with increasingly 21 severe mandatory restrictions. 22 The drought plan establishes 23 benchmarks and guidelines to identify each of these 24 stages. We have another chart with us that displays 25 these three stages. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 78 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 The first two stages, Drought Watch 3 and Drought Warning, have specific statistical 4 benchmarks that tell the City when to declare a 5 watch or a warning. For a drought emergency the       !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~6 plan's definition is not tied to a specific 7 benchmark, but allows the City to consider an array 8 of hydrological, climatic and operational factors 9 before it declares a Drought Emergency. 10 To explain the benchmarks associated 11 with a Drought Watch or a Drought Warning, I should 12 first explain the concept of a "water-year." 13 For reasons related to rainfall and 14 consumption patterns, New York City observes a water 15 year which runs from June 1st to May 31st of the 16 following year. 17 The start of the water-year on June 18 1st marks the beginning of our peak period of 19 consumption. It is ideal that the City's reservoirs 20 be full at that point, as they often are. 21 Using historical data, a profile of 22 system-wide storage levels has been established. 23 Using this profile, criteria have been developed to 24 assess the probability of achieving re-fill, as 100 25 percent re-fill, by the start of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 79 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 succeeding-water year. 3 These criteria are used to identify 4 potential or impending drought conditions. DEP 5 monitors and records daily reservoir storage levels, 6 inflow and releases. If you look at two more charts 7 in your folder, you can see actual and normal 8 storage levels for all our reservoirs. And for the 9 reservoirs in the Delaware system, beginning January 10 of 2001. 11 These conditions are reviewed and 12 regularly compared with historical patterns to 13 forecast the probability of achieving adequate 14 reservoir levels to serve the system's consumers 15 throughout the coming water year. 16 On any given day of the year, DEP can 17 identify the likelihood that given historical 18 rainfall patterns, our system will be re-filled by 19 the following June 1st. 20 For example, in the Plan the 21 benchmark associated with a Drought Watch is "a 22 probability of less than 50 percent that either of 23 the two largest reservoir systems"-- that is the 24 Catskill and Delaware -- "will fill by the next June 25 1st." Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 80 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 After several months of watching 3 reservoir storage decline due to the dry summer and 4 autumn, that point of less than 50 percent 5 probability of re-fill was reached on December 23rd 6 of last year. 7 Under the Plan, a less than 33 8 percent probability of refill triggers a Drought 9 Warning. 10 By January 28th of 2002, the 11 reservoir system considered as a whole is normally 12 at 81.3 percent full. However, by January 28th of 13 this year, the system was only at 41.4 percent full. 14 Given those facts, and assuming statistically normal 15 rainfall, there is a less than 33 percent 16 probability that the system will be at 100 percent 17 of capacity on June 1st, 2002. 18 Accordingly, on January 28th, Mayor 19 Bloomberg announced a Drought Warning. I am pleased 20 to report that since the Mayor's announcement, 21 consumption has dropped. We take that as an 22 indication that people can voluntarily cut back on 23 water use if they are motivated to do so. 24 The Plan's definition of Drought 25 Emergency is more subjective: I quote, "A Drought Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 81 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Emergency is declared when there is a probability 3 that without the implementation of stringent 4 measures to reduce consumption, a protracted dry 5 period would cause the City's reservoirs to be 6 drained." 7 Unlike a Drought Watch or Drought 8 Warning which are meant to promote voluntary water 9 conservation and increased awareness, a Drought 10 Emergency is the predicate for instituting certain 11 mandatory water restrictions. I'll explain those 12 restrictions in a minute as I outline the activities 13 associated with each phase of the drought. 14 First, let me state that a Drought 15 Emergency declaration is at least four weeks away, 16 and possibly as long as ten weeks, depending, of 17 course, on precipitation. 18 We are approaching the time when we 19 can expect spring rains. A normal amount of spring 20 rainfall could ease our shortage considerably. The 21 real problem is if we continue to get below-normal 22 rainfall this spring. We will be monitoring our 23 system very closely over the next few weeks and 24 months. 25 Depending on the amount of rainfall, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 82 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 a significant amount of conservation could keep the 3 consumption numbers low, and potentially make the 4 difference in when we decide to declare an 5 emergency. So conservation remains important. 6 In addition to defining what a 7 drought is, the Plan also lays out various tasks for 8 the City. 9 In a Drought Watch, these tasks are 10 to: 11 - keep the relevant state and federal 12 agencies apprised of the condition of the system. 13 - institute a drought awareness 14 campaign. 15 - maximize Croton water usage. 16 - maximize the output of wells in 17 Queens. 18 - expand leak detection, leak repair 19 and hydrant surveillance programs. 20 - budget for future resources should 21 conditions worsen. 22 - advise upstate users of our 23 situation and request their cooperation in 24 conservation; and 25 - initiate dialogue with the Mayor's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 83 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Office and our sister City agencies concerning 3 further actions to be taken. 4 The plan specifies that during a 5 Drought Warning, all of the "Drought Watch" 6 activities should be "enhanced" and a few new 7 actions are listed; they include: 8 - request voluntary water use 9 restrictions. 10 - develop plans and commence 11 activities to prepare the Chelsea Pumping Station 12 for operation. 13 - commence operation of standby wells 14 in Queens. 15 - coordinate with upstate users to 16 initiate appropriate water use restrictions; and 17 - coordinate with appropriate city 18 agencies on assistance in: Closing hydrants, 19 suspending street washing, restricting parks-related 20 water use, reducing the washing of subway cars, and 21 conducting leak and waste surveys in New York City 22 Housing Authority and City-owned buildings. 23 All of these activities are now 24 underway. With regard to the last item mentioned, 25 Deputy Mayor Shaw has written to all agencies Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 84 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 advising them of their responsibilities under the 3 Drought Management Plan. The Mayor's Office will be 4 scheduling a meeting with the appropriate agencies 5 to follow up on these tasks. 6 Should the City enter a Drought 7 Emergency, all of these actions are supplemented by 8 additional engineering measures to maximize what the 9 City can obtain from its Croton watershed and from 10 the Queens wells. 11 In addition, in a Drought Emergency 12 the City will begin mandatory water use restrictions 13 embodied in the "Drought Emergency Rules" specific 14 to each stage of a Drought Emergency. 15 In State I of an Emergency, the rules 16 prohibit the use of public water for, among other 17 things: 18 - washing vehicles, streets, 19 sidewalks or buildings via hose or other active 20 source. 21 - any ornamental purposes. 22 - watering of lawns, plants, shrubs, 23 trees and golf courses via a hose, except at certain 24 hours and during those hours residents with 25 odd-numbered addresses may only do so on Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 85 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 odd-numbered days and residents with even-numbered 3 addresses on even-numbered days. 4 - prohibits the filling of swimming 5 pools more than once; and 6 - operating large air conditioning 7 systems unless the water is recirculated. 8 The Stage I rules also require 9 non-residential public water users to reduce normal 10 water usage by 15 percent. All building owners are 11 also required to post "Save Water" signs. 12 Should the City proceed to Stage II 13 or Stage III of a Drought Emergency, the rules are 14 increasingly restrictive. As an example, commercial 15 buildings are required to reduce water usage by 20 16 percent in Stage II, and 25 percent in Stage III. 17 Violations of any of these rules 18 carry penalties between $100 and $1,000. These are 19 very ambitious targets, and to reach them will take 20 extensive cooperation and support from building 21 owners and managers, as well as from the tenants and 22 occupants. 23 That concludes my explanation of the 24 stages of the drought and the actions associated 25 with each one. Before I take questions, if any, let Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 86 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 me summarize. 3 The City's demand for water in 4 relation to the yield of our system still leaves us 5 vulnerable to periods of low precipitation. Although 6 the City is blessed with a very large and flexible 7 water supply system, which is the envy of many other 8 suppliers in this part of the country, we are not 9 immune from the consequences of below-normal 10 rainfall. 11 For its part, the City is preparing 12 to expend the resources necessary to provide more 13 water from the Croton supply, expand leak detection 14 in City mains and City buildings, and reduce or 15 suspend water-using activities like washing streets 16 and subway cars. 17 To amplify the impact of these 18 actions, on behalf of Mayor Bloomberg, I ask the 19 public to voluntarily reduce their personal water 20 use. 21 Furthermore, I ask that the Council 22 Members help our public outreach effort by 23 distributing conservation-related materials. 24 I thank you for your attention. My 25 staff and I would be pleased to answer questions. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 87 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. Thank you very much for your detailed 4 testimony. I'm sure everyone here knows a lot more 5 about all aspects of this than we did when we first 6 came in, so you're a good teacher. I might have you 7 in my classes over at Queens College. 8 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Anything we can 9 do to help. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: That would be 11 great. 12 If I could, I would just like to go 13 over some of the items that you mentioned here with 14 regard to the Drought Watch. I know we've been 15 through the Drought Watch days and now we're in the 16 Drought Warning phase. You mentioned, I'm just going 17 to tick off some of the items you have here in the 18 Drought Watch, you indicated that one of the things 19 with the drought watch is that you have to, or we 20 will try to maximize Croton water usage; has that 21 been done? 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Yes, it has. 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Like what level 24 of usage are we at with Croton, and how would that 25 normally compare to where we would ordinarily be at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 88 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 this time of year? 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Let's see. As we 4 speak today, it's about a hundred and -- 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: It's always good 6 to ask Doug, he always knows. Doug really knows. 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I have one of the 8 greatest staffs in the world and each and every one 9 of these people here is capable of providing the 10 information we need. 11 The answer from Doug is 190 million 12 gallons, which means it's about 20 percent, a little 13 less than 20 percent. So, there's been a doubling of 14 essentially the water that we get out of Croton. We 15 are capable of increasing that, we are working 16 towards doing that in the future. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I know also 18 there was some problem, this is going back in time a 19 little bit, with the Croton Aqueduct. There were 20 some problems around as the Croton goes through -- 21 as the Croton Aqueduct goes through Manhattan or 22 something, wasn't there? The infiltration or some 23 sort of MTBE problem or some sort of issue? 24 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No. What had 25 happened is in the Bronx and Manhattan sections, we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 89 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 had shut down the tunnel that brings the Croton 3 water in to do service on it, do repairs, 4 maintenance and inspections and what have you, and 5 like every tube or tunnel and like a garden hose, 6 when there's water in it, if there's any leak in the 7 tunnel the water tends to flow outward because of 8 the pressure in the tunnel. 9 When we shut down the tunnel 10 completely, there is the possibility of some in-flow 11 from outside of the pipe, and during the time when 12 we had it turned off, we picked up some perk, 13 cleaning fluid, and we were able to go back and 14 determine that there was some dry-cleaning 15 facilities above the pipe, the tunnel, as we went 16 through, and what we did is we went back and 17 inspected all of those and we have, you know, taken 18 steps to reduce the amount of perk that comes out of 19 these facilities, gets into the ground. And of 20 course, once we turned the tunnel back on again and 21 flushed the tunnel appropriately, the levels of perk 22 went down to essentially zero. 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. And, so, 24 is your testimony here today that there's no kind of 25 contamination problems with regard to things in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 90 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 soil in and around the Croton Aqueduct that would 3 cause us any concern? 4 COMMISSIONER MIELE: There is no 5 reason to be concerned as long as the tunnel is in 6 operation and when the tunnel is taken out of 7 operation, of course we flush it clean of whatever 8 contaminants might get in from outside before we put 9 it back in service. 10 The state keeps a close good eye, 11 works with us to make sure that they're comfortable 12 and we're comfortable, that there is no possibility 13 of contamination. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Some people in 15 the audience may be wondering why there could be 16 stuff sort of, you know, seeping in and out of the 17 tunnel, and people should be reminded that this 18 Croton Aqueduct was put on line in 1842 and is not 19 sort of the same standard, some of our other 20 underground tunnels are much more advanced than is 21 the Croton Aqueduct, correct? 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Actually, when 23 the Croton tunnel was put on line, most of the Bronx 24 and Westchester were wilderness, and the tunnel was 25 actually built with the intention of permitting Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 91 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 additional water as the tunnel came into the city to 3 flow into the tunnel so it would add to the City's 4 water. So, it's not a sealed tunnel. 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, it's sort of 6 like a bricks and mortar kind of operation? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's a bricks and 8 mortar, and it's deliberately set up to permit 9 additional water from the ground -- 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Oh, I see. Okay. 11 You also mentioned here to maximize 12 the output of wells in Queens; has that been done? 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We are in the 14 process of doing that now. We have doubled the 15 amount of water that we've been getting normally out 16 of the wells, from 10 to 20 million gallons per day. 17 We believe that we get that up to about 50 million 18 gallons per day. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, we were only 20 pumping about ten from those Jamaica Water Service 21 wells? 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Yes. 23 One of the problems that we had with 24 Jamaica is that I think Jamaica realized that they 25 were going to lose their franchise and they weren't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 92 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 intending to put a lot of money into improvements 3 and capital work in the well system, so that when we 4 took it over, while it complied with the standards 5 and specs, most of their wells didn't and those were 6 shut down. 7 On the other hand, what we're looking 8 at is a program in order to increase the safe yield 9 for the City of New York, we're looking to increase 10 the amount of water that comes out of those wells, 11 and we're working with the community in Southeast 12 Queens now to ensure them that what we intend to do 13 is to provide a filter system that's a 14 state-of-the-art filter system, so that the water 15 that comes out of those wells meets and exceeds the 16 quality of the water coming out of our reservoir 17 system before we put it back on line. 18 And we're working with the community 19 so they can see what we're doing, but at some point 20 in time we hope to solve two problems. Number one, 21 the need for additional water by getting it out of 22 the well systems in Brooklyn and Queens, and number 23 two, the problem, as we sit here in a drought it's 24 remarkable to say this, but there was a systemic 25 drought in the northeast that goes back to the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 93 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 fifties, and as the wells, the private companies, 3 and they were companies in Brooklyn in those days, 4 too, that gradually went out of business, they 5 pumped water out the aquifer, and that kept the 6 aquifer down low and kept it getting lower. As that 7 drought, systemic northeastern United States drought 8 kind of ended, the groundwater starting rising again 9 and the well companies went out of business, and 10 essentially there's been very little pumping, only 11 what we do today, and the groundwater has rebounded 12 to the point where we're beginning to get flooding 13 in MTA facilities and in the basements of buildings 14 in South Queens from the groundwater as it rises. 15 So, we're hoping that an increase in the pumping, 16 and the concomitant use of it as potable water when 17 we get the filters in place and the system put 18 together will be a double win for the City. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, terrific. 20 And thank you. Thank you very much. 21 Also, I'm certainly going to open 22 this up to questions for my colleagues, but I just 23 want to stay on this point here, just to kind of 24 follow this through. 25 Now, Southeast Queens, I think former Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 94 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Jamaica Water Service wells once upon a time used to 3 pump out about like 100 million gallons a day, 4 something like that, on that order? In that ball 5 park? 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Correct. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And once upon a 8 time did pump to 100 million gallons a day? 9 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's absolutely 10 correct. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And those were 12 also taken off line as the combination of the water 13 being inferior to the upstate water, and water just 14 being, you don't want to give it to anyone because 15 there are levels of contaminants in the wells which, 16 you know, preclude their safe usage by people? 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: To be fair to 18 Jamaica, keep in mind, back in the fifties Southeast 19 Queens was not heavily developed. And therefore, any 20 contamination of the groundwater was minimal. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: As Southeast 23 Queens developed and there was gasoline stations, et 24 cetera, there was more contamination and more risk 25 and they shut down more and more wells. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 95 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But my point is, 3 we took Southeast Queens wells down to about 10 4 million gallons a day, from a high of 100 -- 5 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Correct. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO:-- For a 7 combination of reasons. Now the intent is to go back 8 up to 50. So, we've gone from ten to 20, I guess, 9 right? And that increment of the additional ten is 10 without the benefit of any kind of like new 11 filtration system or whatever? 12 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But anything 14 above and beyond this 20 million going up to 50 will 15 have the benefit of this filtration? 16 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We're in the 17 process, we can meet all of the standards. We can 18 meet all of the standards that we have to for public 19 health purposes. I'm not proud of the water, and the 20 new filters that we'll bring in to put onto the 21 wells that are functioning to give us the 50 MGD are 22 perfectly adequate to do it. 23 My commitment to the people in 24 Southeast Queens was their water would be as good as 25 or better than the water coming out of the aqueduct Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 96 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 system, once we get this system in place. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Now, what's the 4 timetable for bringing on this filtration system? 5 Would that be in time for this drought that may be 6 coming up? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I will answer 8 your second question first. The answer is no way in 9 hell. It's going to take us years to develop this. 10 And in some measure, what we're doing 11 basically is cutting new ground in providing purity 12 in well water, well above what you would expect from 13 others. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: My question is 15 that we were operating under the non-drought 16 conditions getting 10 million gallons per day out of 17 the ground in Southeast Queens, and during the 18 drought, if the drought really gets bad, we may be 19 doing 20 or more. 20 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, we expect to 21 get up to about 50 MGD. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Fifty, during -- 23 COMMISSIONER MIELE: During the 24 drought. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: During the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 97 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 drought. 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's correct. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, it means 5 these extra 40 million gallons will be coming from 6 wells and water that we're not proud of or whatever, 7 so how do we -- will it be mixing with other 8 reservoir water or? 9 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We can pump out 10 of the wells that we've got now more water, but we 11 can't do it on a regular 12-month schedule. 12 Because what happens is, as you pump 13 water out of the ground, the ground water or the 14 area where the well is depressed by your pumping it 15 out. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Sure. 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: So, we can get 18 away with it for six months, we can get away with it 19 for eight months, we can't get away with it 12 20 months out of the year, year after year. 21 So, what we expect to do -- 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I'm not 23 following that, though, because you're not talking 24 about a situation where -- because once upon a time 25 these wells used to be able to sustain that amount Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 98 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 of pumping, maybe what's going on here is that -- 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's not the same 4 wells. Keep in mind they had a lot of wells. 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We've taken a lot 7 of their wells out of service and are not putting 8 them back into service. 9 So, what we are looking to do is to 10 get more water out of the same number of wells and 11 some additional wells that we're comfortable with, 12 after we open them up and restart them up. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I'm looking at 14 this question from the point of knowing what goes on 15 on the ground, as a geologist I do understand this, 16 that, you know, you've got your water table here and 17 you've got the well down here, now as you start to 18 draw this well, this well maybe hasn't been 19 operating for awhile, you're going to start to draw 20 down water from like the top of the aquifer that has 21 been the recipient of contamination and so on, 22 because, of course, the water at its deepest is the 23 cleanest, and as you open up this well that's been 24 closed for awhile, you are going to start to draw 25 down, you know, some water from the top of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 99 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 aquifer, and it seems that the longer these wells 3 operate in the absence of filtration, like the 4 nastier they are going to get. And my question to 5 you is, is that a fair assumption and what are you 6 going to do about it? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, we don't 8 really believe that's going to happen. We believe 9 the filters that we'll install on them will permit 10 us to keep an acceptable quality -- 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But the filters 12 aren't going to happen now. 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, the filters 14 will happen for the wells that we've got in place. 15 What won't happen is the entire system, which will 16 be integrated across Brooklyn and Queens. 17 That's going to take place over 18 seven, eight, ten years maybe. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. So, again, 20 I'm sorry to be a little slow, but maybe some of the 21 people are having the same difficult I am trying to 22 keep up. 23 You know, the water that's added to 24 the distribution system this year, in response to 25 the drought, will have the benefit of filtration? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 100 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's correct. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. And what 4 will these be like, some sort of modular system, or 5 is it going to be like physical filtration, or some 6 sort of aeration device? I would just like to ask 7 Doug to -- sorry, we've got to swear in Doug, okay. 8 MS. ROSEN: Please raise your right 9 hand. 10 Do you solemnly -- 11 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Excuse me. Do you 12 want to swear in the whole staff just in case, then 13 we don't have to do it again? 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Let's rock. 15 Let's do it. 16 MS. ROSEN: Everyone, do you solemnly 17 swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 18 give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 19 the truth? 20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: I do. 21 COMMISSIONER MIELE: They do. 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER PRINCIPE: I do. 23 MR. STURCKEN: I do. 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: Good 25 afternoon, Mr. Chair, and other Council members. My Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 101 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 name is Doug Greeley, I'm Deputy Commissioner -- 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Doug, if I 4 could. I know members who are here are getting 5 restless, this will be my last question for you 6 folks, and then I'll open it up to the rest of the 7 members and I'll wait my turn for a second round. 8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: There is 9 nobody more restless than me. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: All right. Good 11 to see you, Doug. 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: Good to 13 see you, too. 14 Good afternoon. My name is Doug 15 Greeley, I'm Deputy Commissioner for the Department 16 of Environmental Protection's Bureau of Water and 17 Sewer Operations, and the question on the floor 18 about the Jamaica wells, we would be adding a 19 modular granulated carbon filter that our 20 consultants have looked at and they feel it would 21 remove all of the contaminants that we presently see 22 in the Jamaica groundwater, namely MTBE, gasoline 23 and any perc that's in the ground. This water would 24 be as good as or better than Cat/Del water. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, I guess, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 102 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 you know, people are right to be very concerned 3 about this, and I know that Council Member Jennings, 4 whose people are served by this water, so we're 5 taking water that we know is contaminated with MTBE, 6 perc and a bunch of other stuff, that we'd probably, 7 you know, rather not discuss, and we're going to put 8 this -- yes, we will discuss it. Poor choice of 9 words on my part. 10 And I guess I'm wondering where these 11 filtration plants would be and this would be subject 12 to I guess all of the testing that you do, and I 13 guess where can you go to see this, like on a pilot 14 basis, and sort of get our hands around this thing? 15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: Okay, 16 that was a lot of questions all at once. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: We would 19 be installing the granulated carbon at the present 20 well system. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: On site for each 22 -- 23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: On site 24 for each one. 25 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Each well would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 103 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 have its own separate system, okay? It's no 3 different than a filter being put on, the service 4 coming into your house. So, it will be individual 5 wells. 6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: We are 7 also conducting pilot water treatment testing right 8 now, water station 6, as part of the groundwater 9 project that we're doing with the community. 10 We are looking at cleaning up the 11 west side corporation from an inactive hazardous 12 waste site, lower the groundwater table, and improve 13 our ability to supply water. We think this project 14 will work out pretty well for everyone. But we are 15 conducting the pilot testing right now, to show the 16 community what we could get out of the water before 17 it hits the system. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, but this 19 seems like a very complicated endeavor that we're 20 going into and sort of, it's critical that this 21 succeed, both from the point of view that we need 22 the water, second, we can't run the risk of having 23 any, you know, entity or perc, or whatever, sort of 24 slip through. So this is critical on many accounts, 25 and even though, which is going to set up the one Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 104 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 additional question that I said I wasn't going to 3 ask, but I just changed my mind, but this will 4 definitely be my last question before I turn it over 5 to other members is that, why are we waiting to do 6 the Drought Emergency? It seems that we're making 7 the case here that we ought to move right away to a 8 Drought Emergency, or at least the first stage of 9 one? We know we're going to get rain this spring, 10 and we know that that will help, but it seems to me 11 by what you've outlined here, that if we have the 12 ability to move to the first stage of a Drought 13 Emergency, perhaps now is the prudent time to do so. 14 Particularly, I mean, here we are talking about perc 15 and MTBE and everything else, pollutants going in 16 the ground and doing all sorts of complicated 17 filtration systems and getting some place, it just 18 seems that we've through the Drought Emergency 19 before, we've all been through it, we all are better 20 for it perhaps, and perhaps maybe now is the time to 21 pull the trigger on that, and put these measures in 22 place, or if we're not as successful as we need to 23 be with this filtration project, we'll have a little 24 bit of a buffer so-to-speak? 25 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Item number one, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 105 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I think that we don't want to pull the trigger until 3 it has to be done, and I don't want to go out and 4 ask people to do something before we've reached the 5 belief ourselves that there's a need for it. 6 And as I said, we're looking at four 7 weeks minimum, possibly as much as two months before 8 we get to that. 9 The second thing is that this is not 10 something we've started as a result of the drought. 11 This program of looking at the wells in Southeast 12 Queens is a program that goes back easily three 13 years. We recognize that there was a problem in the 14 groundwater table, as we said before, and we 15 recognize that there was a concern on the part of 16 the folks in Southeast Queens about the quality from 17 the wells in Southeast Queens. So, we have been 18 looking to do that, and this is just a carry-on, 19 it's not the first stage, it's probably the fourth 20 or fifth stage of what we're doing, and we're very 21 comfortable that what it will do is ultimately give 22 us another effectively five percent more water than 23 we had available today. And we believe that we have 24 that water available, using what we've got in place 25 and well timely in place when we need it for at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 106 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 least six months or so, if the drought does carry us 3 through to that point. 4 So each of these measures that we're 5 taking, we're taking with the lead time that we need 6 necessarily to put them on line at a reasonable and 7 appropriate point in the need for them. 8 Now, each of them carries a cost, 9 and, again, what we don't want to do -- I mean, it 10 would be very simple for the Water Board to say 11 let's just spend the hell out of it, and let's put 12 everything in place now just in case we need it, and 13 keep in mind, our consumption has been dropping 14 steadily at the same time that the water has been 15 holding fairly well, as far as the storage capacity 16 is concerned. 17 So, the bottom line here is do we 18 want to throw money at something that we're not 19 really sure is necessary yet? And the answer to that 20 I think is no, we don't want to do that. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, we'll -- 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We'll do the 23 pilot programs, we'll have the 50 million gallons 24 available, we don't have any problem with that. We 25 will maximize the Croton and then, again, we'll do a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 107 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 lot of praying for rain. I've offered to do a rain 3 dances if it's necessary. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 5 I am going to turn it over to the 6 other members now, but I would like to just indicate 7 that the question that I'm going to be coming back 8 to is the roughly, what, you know, 1 billion gallons 9 a month that we perhaps are going to be losing 10 upstate at the leak of the Delaware Aqueduct and 11 perhaps the non-feasibility of going through the 12 Chelsea Pumping Station, because I don't know if 13 we're going to be able to do that without breaking 14 all kinds of laws and creating all kinds of 15 problems. But I don't want to ask those now, those 16 are coming. 17 Did you have a question? 18 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Do you have 19 an order? 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We have an 21 order. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Put me on the 23 list. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I wasn't sure if 25 Council Member Koppell wanted to follow up on his Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 108 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 testimony or wanted to start his own line of 3 questioning. 4 I'm going to permit Council Member 5 Koppell just a brief question, and then we'll get to 6 Council Member Jennings, who I'm sure has a host of 7 questions. But just one quick question, please. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Just a 9 follow-up on what the Chairman said, and I didn't 10 understand your reaction where you said you would 11 throw money at it. 12 The issue is that you're already 13 taking steps, which are doing things that we 14 probably would prefer not to do. You say you're 15 maximizing water from the Croton system and in your 16 earlier testimony you indicated Croton system is 17 lest pristine than the Delaware and the Catskill 18 systems. You're taking money out of -- taking money 19 -- you're taking water out of the Queens wells, as 20 the Chairman indicated, that probably we wouldn't 21 want to do that as a priority, it seems to me. 22 So, you're already doing things that 23 are negative in terms of the system, and we look at 24 the map here, or the chart here, and I see there 25 were 40 percent, instead of being up in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 109 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 eighties. 3 I don't understand why we're 4 postponing for four weeks or ten weeks the 5 declaration of a drought emergency which would 6 provide not, it seems to me, the most onerous 7 restriction in the world, I read your chart here, 8 but would further contain the use of water and 9 perhaps avoid some of the things, continuing some of 10 the things you're already doing? 11 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Well, let me -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Commissioner, if 13 I could, I kind of already asked that question, 14 whatever, and he made his attempt to respond to 15 that. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: He didn't 17 answer it. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If I could, let 19 me try. If I could, we'll just let that sit for 20 awhile, because we can have that -- Council Member 21 Koppell can follow a whole line of questioning on 22 that. I thought it was something different, but this 23 is to say that perhaps not all members of the 24 Committee were fully satisfied with the answer, but 25 I think we're going to hear a little more on that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 110 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 But good question, and I hope that 3 you follow that up with him when you have your own 4 line of questioning. 5 Council Member Jennings. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you, 7 Mr. Chairman. 8 Chairman and my fellow Committee 9 members, I want you to know that I represent the 10 20th Council District, as you know, and Jamaica 11 Queens is 100 percent of my district, so, please 12 forgive me for asking for a little bit more than 13 normal time and forgive me if I take up too much 14 time, because this is a very, very important issue 15 to the members of my community. 16 Mr. Commissioner, you stated earlier 17 we have three different water systems. One is the 18 one in the Delaware, one is the Croton water system, 19 and there's the Jamaica water system. 20 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Four. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Four? What's 22 the fourth one? 23 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's the 24 Catskills -- 25 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Catskills. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 111 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Delaware, Croton 3 -- 4 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Croton. 5 COMMISSIONER MIELE: And the well 6 system. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Okay. 8 You also stated that this Catskills 9 and the Delaware system is the safest water; is that 10 correct? 11 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I wouldn't 12 describe it as the safest waters. Let's put it this 13 way, it has the least amount of odor -- 14 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Color to it. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Consequently it 18 is the people drinking it appreciate it more, okay, 19 as a taste. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And the 21 Crayton (sic) water system is less desirable than 22 the Catskills and Delaware water system; is that 23 correct? 24 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's correct. 25 It's Croton system, yes. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 112 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Croton, 3 sorry. 4 And, now, the Jamaica water system -- 5 the Queens water system is least desirable of those 6 two; is that correct? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: You mean of the 8 Croton or of the wells? 9 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Say, for 10 instance, of the Croton system, the Jamaica water 11 system is the least desirable? 12 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, I don't think 13 so. I think that what I would say is that we're not 14 comfortable that the quality of the water coming out 15 of the well system, the Jamaica system, meets the 16 standard of the Catskill and Delaware systems. It 17 probably easily meets the standard of the Croton 18 system, but to us that's not acceptable. And it 19 meets every state and federal standard, and to us, 20 if we accepted that as a minimum, and water 21 companies tend to do that, that would be one thing. 22 We don't believe that's acceptable, we need to get 23 it to match the Catskill and the Delaware quality. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: The Croton 25 system, compared to the Jamaica water well system is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 113 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 a little bit better than the Jamaica system; is that 3 correct? 4 Sir, let me remind you that you're 5 under oath -- 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Yes, I understand 7 that. That's a little -- 8 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Could you 9 please answer the question straight? 10 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I've answered the 11 question I think at least twice, and I'm going to 12 answer it one more time. The answer is, no, I don't 13 believe that the quality of the water coming out of 14 the well system is substantially different from the 15 water coming out of the Croton system. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Okay, but 17 you did state, though, that the Catskill water is 18 much better than Jamaica water? 19 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I've said that 20 the Catskill water and the Delaware water is of a 21 better quality than both the Croton and the well 22 system. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: You claim 24 that currently we do not have a filtration system in 25 Jamaica; is that correct? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 114 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, that's not 3 correct. We have filters. All the water that comes 4 out of wells has to be filtered. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: But you said 6 earlier in your testimony that it's going to take 7 some seven to eight, maybe even ten years, to put a 8 system throughout, a filtration system throughout 9 Jamaica Water? 10 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, I'm talking 11 about putting a well system throughout Brooklyn and 12 Queens, which means a completely separately piped 13 system, which would bring water to one or two 14 central filtration plants where it would be 15 filtered. That's the system that will take what we 16 believe to be seven to eight to possibly ten years 17 to put into place, and we're working on the studies 18 that are necessary in order to validate that 19 proposal. 20 And what we've done besides that, is 21 that you heard from my Deputy that we intend to add 22 a filter element to the existing filters at each of 23 the well heads as today, but each one of those well 24 heads, as the water comes out of the ground, it runs 25 through a filter system to make sure that any Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 115 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 material in it, that is, you know, not within the 3 standards is removed, and that is happening. 4 What he's looking to do now with the 5 activated charcoal filters is to give us a better 6 looking and a better smelling and a better tasting 7 water. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Do we have 9 this activated charcoal system on any wells now in 10 Jamaica? 11 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Not yet, no. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And when do 13 you think that we may get it on at least one well in 14 Jamaica? 15 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Within about a 16 month we anticipate. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And how many 18 do you anticipate -- how many wells do you 19 anticipate covering within the next month? 20 COMMISSIONER MIELE: By the time we 21 get them on line, understanding they won't be put 22 back on, unless their wells are operating now, 23 without the charcoal filters, but he anticipates 24 that we'll have 12 separate wells functioning with 25 charcoal filters some time before the Drought Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 116 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Emergency, if you will. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Okay, and 4 geographically within Jamaica, Queens, in which 5 areas are you going to put these filter systems in? 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's very 7 difficult to answer a question like that, because 8 keep in mind, these don't have separate piping that 9 goes into your house or the next house or the next 10 house, they get merged into the water that's being 11 sent down from the aqueducts, and it's a blended 12 quantity, so it gets blended into our normal water 13 supply and distribution system. 14 If you want to see where the 15 individual wells are, we could certainly provide you 16 with that information. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: 18 Commissioner, we know that Far Rockaway, and we have 19 Queens Village, we have Jamaica, South Ozone Park, 20 and we have Jamaica Estates and Hollis Hills and 21 there is different well systems for those areas, so 22 I want to know, if one or more of your Commissioners 23 could provide that today, where do you plan putting 24 this new system in? 25 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Any well that's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 117 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 on will have this system. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: But you said 4 within the next month you plan on having them in 12. 5 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Within the next 6 month there will be -- no, you're not listening, 7 okay? We said when will we expect -- you asked me 8 when we will have the first one on line, we said 9 within about a month. Then I said to you that 10 ultimately we would expect to put 12 wells on, there 11 are not 12 wells functioning now. When we put the 12 12 wells on, as they go on each one of them will 13 have that same filter. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And where is 15 that one going to be put into? 16 COMMISSIONER MIELE: The first one? 17 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Yes, sir. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I want to jump 19 in here a second. I think I have some value added to 20 this discourse, and I think it appropriate for me to 21 put at this point -- 22 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: You -- 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Excuse me, I'm 24 going to, you know, assert my prerogative to sort of 25 jump into this discussion. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 118 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 It seems that there are a lot of 3 technical details that, you know, your staff and 4 Council Member Jennings can work out to like 5 precise, geographic location -- 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I will be happy 7 to supply him with -- 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: -- I'm going to 9 let you get back. I'm going to let you get back, but 10 I think that what the Commissioner is trying to say, 11 that, you know, these wells are currently not 12 serving the public at the moment. They are shut off, 13 some of them. And as they are brought on line, they 14 will have this filtration apparatus now like the 15 precise, you know, sequencing and location -- 16 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's correct. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: -- And where 18 these fit into the distribution system. I think 19 these are questions on a level of detail that, you 20 know, you should meet with the Commissioner 21 afterwards. 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We can provide 23 the Council Member with that, as it occurs, and as 24 we become aware of it, and we're perfectly willing 25 to sit down with him or his staff now and in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 119 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 future for as long as it needs to satisfy him. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Terrific. So, if 4 you have any other questions, then please proceed. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you. 6 You know, I just don't want you to 7 provide it to me, I want you to provide it to the 8 public, to the people of New York City. That's why 9 this forum is here. 10 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We have no 11 problem with that. We will be very pleased to put it 12 up on our web site, if you believe that's got some 13 value. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Just before 15 you go on, can you tell me where that one is going 16 to be placed within the next month? 17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: 18 Councilman Jennings, we are filtering at the Station 19 6, it's just off of 180th and Brinkerhoff. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: A hundred 21 and where? 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: 180th 23 Street generally, Brinkerhoff Avenue. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And that's 25 where that one will be placed at? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 120 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GREELEY: That's 3 coming up now. 4 We're in the process of debugging it 5 and pilot testing. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Okay. 7 When you normally pump water from the 8 Jamaica system to the rest of the City system, you 9 usually take the water from the northern part of 10 Jamaica, right? That's the Jamaica Estates and the 11 Hollis Hills area? You don't go into taking water 12 from the southern parts of Far Rockaway or South 13 Jamaica; is that correct? 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Excuse me. I 15 just received a note that indicates that we have to 16 be out of this room by 1:00 p.m. I was not aware of 17 the fact that we had to be out of this room by 1:00 18 p.m. And in the interest of time, I wasn't aware of 19 this when I had my, you know, prolonged series of 20 questions, which I did, but I would ask the Council 21 member that any questions that relate to in like a 22 general way to the drought, I would like you to get 23 to those questions. I would sort of hold the other 24 members, you know, to the same standards, and the 25 particular questions on what and where in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 121 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 distribution system be sort of held off to speak to 3 the Commissioner and his staff after which they will 4 give you all the time you want. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: That last 6 question was just an interest of environmental 7 justice. 8 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I think one of 9 the things that needs to be answered, since you lay 10 it out as environmental justice, is the fact that 11 the only well system that we have is the old Jamaica 12 water supply well system, which means it's 13 essentially in Jamaica in the area around Jamaica. 14 That is the system we bought. There is no other 15 system that we have that's active so there are none 16 any place else in Queens or Brooklyn or any place 17 else in the City of New York, and we have been 18 operating the minimal amount of those, Jamaica Water 19 Supply company was putting 50 million gallons a day 20 out of the system in the normal business. We reduced 21 it to 10 million in order to blend the water and to 22 provide a better product early on when we took over 23 the system. 24 We're looking now, again, as we said, 25 to increase the quality of the water coming out of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 122 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that system, to the point where you've heard the 3 Deputy say he believes it will meet and exceed 4 Catskill Delaware. So, we're very comfortable that 5 this is not an issue of a particular community being 6 picked on, it's a deal where we're handling a 7 situation that we've been dealt with over the years, 8 and I think that we've done the right thing by 9 taking Jamaica Water supply and taking them out of 10 the business and putting someone into the business 11 who is more interested in the quality of the water 12 than rather how much he can get for it. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Mr. 14 Commissioner, I want you to know that I fully 15 understand that this was not a something that you 16 inherited. Going to my final question, with regards 17 to rates that are being charged to the residents of 18 Jamaica versus the rest of the City, are we paying 19 the same rate for the rest of the City, or are we 20 paying more? 21 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Well, let me put 22 it in perspective for you. When you were getting 23 water from Jamaica Water Supply, you were paying 24 approximately 40 percent more for the water that you 25 were getting from Jamaica Water Supply, and you were Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 123 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 getting effectively a majority of the water being 3 well water from the Jamaica system. 4 We actually were supplying them water 5 on a wholesale basis even while they still had it. 6 When we took it over, the amount of 7 water supply by wells went down fairly dramatically 8 to the point where it is no more than 10 million 9 gallons, which you've heard, and we're looking to 10 bring it back up, but not using the system that was 11 in place, but using a much better filter system as 12 we go up. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: And with 14 regards to our water rates right now, are we paying 15 more? 16 COMMISSIONER MIELE: You're paying 17 exactly the same rate everyone else pays. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: The same 19 rate as everyone else, but our quality is less? 20 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No. The quality 21 of water, again, what you're trying to get me to do 22 is to say that I put the Catskill and Delaware water 23 in one area and I put other water in other areas 24 that's of lesser quality. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: That's what Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 124 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 you stated earlier, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, what I said 4 to you was the wells are there, Council member, and 5 the last time I looked, it's very tough to rip a 6 well out of the ground and move it some place else. 7 I'm dealing with what I have been dealt with when I 8 got the system and when I took over as Commissioner, 9 and what we're doing is improving the system, not 10 leaving it the way it was. 11 We have met with the community and we 12 have met with the community board and the people in 13 the community and public meetings, and have said to 14 them that what we intend to do or are in the process 15 of doing is improving the quality of that water, so, 16 and I say this again, maybe for the cameras, it will 17 meet and/or exceed the quality of the water coming 18 out of the Catskill Delaware. 19 So, we're headed toward what you 20 want. So, I mean, I don't see the point of blaming 21 us for what we've got here. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 23 Commissioner. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Just one 25 last question. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 125 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Allan, if I 3 could -- 4 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: On Stage II 5 and Stage III emergencies, of charging -- 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, last 7 question. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: -- $1,000 9 for any landlord who does not meet conservation, how 10 does the landlord, again, going back to the question 11 I spoke to Mr. Lockhart earlier, how does the 12 landlord control on a multi-dwelling plumbing 13 building, the tenants' usage? 14 COMMISSIONER MIELE: First of all, he 15 doesn't. That's been testified to by people before 16 me, and that's a fact of life. 17 There are some methods that we are 18 looking at in the pilot stage that would permit us 19 to put effectively meters on individual riser lines 20 in the building to overcome the problem we heard 21 about earlier. But if you put it in perspective 22 again, you have to go back and look at what we've 23 said. We've said non-residential water must be cut 24 back, not residential water. 25 We recognize, first of all, that the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 126 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 amount of water used by residential people for 3 residential uses is basically smaller than what's 4 used industrially and commercially in the City of 5 New York. It's the industrial and commercial users 6 that we will ask to cut back, and those people, we 7 have no problem with we have meters and they're 8 single usages. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 10 Thank you, Commissioner. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you, 12 Commissioner. I want to tell you that we, in 13 Jamaica, look forward to drinking this high quality 14 water that you promise that we'll have soon. 15 COMMISSIONER MIELE: And I hope to be 16 able to give it to you. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER JENNINGS: Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, Council 19 Member DeBlasio. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER DeBLASIO: Thank you, 21 Mr. Chairman. 22 Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, in a few 23 moments I have to leave for another meeting, but let 24 me just address one question to the Commissioner, 25 following up on the point raised by Council Member Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 127 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Koppell. 3 Commissioner, I think as we do not 4 have the same expertise as you and your staff, the 5 common sense question is, if you are projecting a 6 time line for when we would initiate the higher 7 level Drought Emergency phase, where could it lead 8 from there would be my question? 9 In other words, if you predict, and 10 all of us look at global warming and other factors 11 with some trepidation, if you predict a declining 12 situation over the coming months, would the argument 13 therefore be to announce the emergency phase earlier 14 so we can start conserving more so that we could 15 preclude an even worse situation down the line to 16 the order of what we've experienced in past decades; 17 could you give us a sense of your projection over 18 the next few months? 19 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Yes. I think that 20 essentially what you have to realize, and I think 21 you do, is the fact that we got into a situation 22 over six months ago where we were short on rainfall. 23 One could take the position we should have gone to a 24 Drought Emergency at that point, obviously it wasn't 25 necessary. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 128 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 We still have a hope and an 3 expectation that the amount of precipitation we get, 4 which is the normal March and April rains, will take 5 us out of the hard problem and concerns that we have 6 regarding a Drought Emergency. 7 Now, I've been here in this agency 8 six years, we've gone through easily two situations 9 where we went through a drought warning and a 10 drought watch. In one case we got very, very close 11 to declaring a drought emergency, did not have to do 12 so, but were doing the preliminary plans for it. 13 There's a very, very formalized 14 process for doing this, and we're comfortable that 15 -- and the state regulators who work with us in 16 setting out the drought management plan, and which 17 integrates with the State's Drought Management Plan, 18 we're very comfortable with the steps that we've 19 been taking and the time line that we've taken to do 20 it. 21 We have 50 years history of 22 meteorological results in the question of droughts 23 or non-droughts for the City, and we're using every 24 year of that experience to move us along. 25 If we do get to that point, again, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 129 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 within 30 days I may be back here telling you we're 3 in a Drought Emergency. I would hope I'll be back 4 here within 30 days telling you I've got a whole lot 5 wetter than I had gotten in the last six months, and 6 the whole thing is blown away while we have a low 7 water supply, it's not going to be a Drought 8 Emergency. 9 A Drought Emergency gets fairly 10 impacting on the public, on the business. I mean, 11 keep in mind we've said we're going to reduce the 12 amount of water used by business. The water that 13 business uses generally is generated to make a 14 profit by providing a product. If they don't do 15 that, that means a little bit less business for each 16 of the business people in the City of New York, and 17 concomitantly a little less tax money that comes in 18 from those businesses. 19 So, you don't want to prematurely 20 move into something that gets fairly draconian, and 21 that's what we're looking to do. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER DeBLASIO: Just a quick 23 follow-up. 24 Commissioner, we certainly understand 25 that you would not want to declare an emergency Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 130 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 unless you were absolutely convinced there was need. 3 I guess the question is, where it leads from there. 4 Under the projections that you may 5 have done, is there a possibility of a worsening 6 situation, say you don't get the rainfall you 7 expect, because we've seen such quirky whether 8 dynamics in recent years, again, is there an 9 argument to use this as a preventative measure to 10 ensure that if we have extraordinarily low rainfall, 11 that we would not end up in an even worse emergency 12 in the coming months? 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I think the 14 answer to that is, that if you look at the usable 15 storage we have today, which is 48.3 percentage, it 16 works out to 264 billion gallons of water. Now, if 17 you take, and assume that our usage, which it is, it 18 is about 1.2 billion gallons per day, and you divide 19 1.2 billion gallons into 264, even we don't have 20 another ounce of rain for the next six months or so, 21 we're fine without any reductions in our usage. 22 The Mayor has been out telling people 23 they need to reduce water. We have seen substantial 24 reductions in water since the Mayor started talking 25 about it. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 131 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 I'm convinced that the people of the 3 City of New York are bright people who understand 4 where their best interests are, who understand that 5 we're dealing with something that's beyond nature in 6 this case, and that they're willing to work with us 7 and what we want to do is to make sure that we 8 minimally impact them in the process of doing that, 9 and hopefully we're doing this thing the way it 10 should be done. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 12 you, Commissioner. 13 Council Member Vallone. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: Thank you, 15 Chairman. 16 You mentioned the Delaware Aqueduct 17 leak, I would like to ask a question on that. I'm 18 told that we are wasting presently 38 million 19 gallons of water per day. With the dire 20 circumstances you just mentioned, I think that's 21 extremely relevant to our hearing. 22 You previously testified that a 23 submarine was built and ready for action and 24 subsequently you testified to the City Council that 25 that was not entirely correct, and, in fact, it did Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 132 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 not exist. I'd like to know today, with that amount 3 of water being wasted, what actions have you taken? 4 That testimony was given a year ago, what actions 5 have been taken to repair the leak of the Delaware 6 Aqueduct? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: If I may, let me 8 start off by correcting you a little bit. Wastage of 9 water is caused by people who do something 10 deliberately that causes us to lose the resource of 11 water. 12 The Delaware leak, which is not 38 13 million gallons a day, the maximum it has ever been 14 was 38 million gallons on one particular day, we've 15 never had a duplicate that high, and the testing 16 that we've done, and this is not because we've had a 17 drought, but the testing we had done, because when I 18 came into this job back in 1996, I was concerned 19 about the loss of water through leakage, and I asked 20 for a study to be done. That study indicates that 21 the loss through the Delaware Aqueduct at the two 22 leaks that you're questioning is essentially 23 directly proportionate with the amount of water that 24 flows through the tunnel. And since the water that 25 flows through the tunnel is about somewhat below 50 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 133 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 percent of what it's capacity is, the actual water 3 that's leaking out of it now I would estimate at, 4 and keep in mind it's an estimate, since I'm under 5 oath, it's probably in the neighborhood of 18 6 million gallons a day. 7 Now, that being said, every water 8 system, including the one in your home, I suspect, 9 Councilman, leaks to some extent. And what we want 10 to do is to minimize the amount of leaking that 11 occurs, and that's why we go out and we test what 12 occurs in the streets in order to make sure that 13 we're minimizing those leaks and eliminating them if 14 we can. 15 Now, the situation that we deal with 16 here is unaccounted for water, and there have been 17 surveys throughout the various major what I would 18 call similar cities to ourselves and the information 19 that I have indicates that the leakages unaccounted 20 for, if I can put it that way, range from 21 Bloomington, Indiana, which I wouldn't call exactly 22 a major City, but that's 8.13 percent of their flow, 23 and then it varies up to as high as 31.48, and in 24 New Orleans 52.05. Now, we anticipate and we expect 25 that our leakage through that tunnel, which is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 134 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 somewhat less than two percent of the water that we 3 use, is the major leak, and when I got in here in 4 '96, and I had the study done, in '97 what ended up 5 happening is that we found out that we had a leak, 6 the leak appeared to be abinitio (phonetic), that is 7 when the tunnel went into service, it went through 8 two fractured zones of rock. And keep in mind, this 9 is essentially an unlined tunnel, there's no steel 10 in this tunnel, no piping, the hole that's driven 11 through the rock is in essence the tunnel, there is 12 no structural lining there. There is a lining to 13 increase -- to decrease the coefficient of friction 14 of water running through the tunnel, but there's no 15 structural lining, there's nothing to prevent the 16 water from getting out. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If I could, 18 Commissioner, I'm just going to jump in for a 19 second, because I was here at the hearings we had 20 last year, and that was not my understanding at all. 21 That was pure and simple not my understanding, that 22 there was a tunnel, it had concrete, it was all 23 drilled through. This is catching me completely 24 unaware, that just wasn't my understanding. 25 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Well, that's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 135 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 surprising because we've testified to that on more 3 than one occasion. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Well, I would be 5 happy to look at the transcript of that because -- 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Please do. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: That was not my 8 understanding at all, that this was just a, you 9 know, hole through the rock. 10 COMMISSIONER MIELE: All of our 11 tunnels are essentially holes through a rock. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I understand 13 that, but it is my understanding that the hole was 14 drilled and this was a pressurized tunnel, that you 15 know, extended from the Delaware Aqueduct system, 44 16 miles or whatever it is and that this is a 17 pressurized tunnel, and to hear the contrary just, 18 you know, sets me back on my heels a little bit. 19 COMMISSIONER MIELE: You haven't heard 20 anything that disputes what you just said. That's 21 exactly what it is, but the instance is that when 22 the tunnel was built, in the two areas it was 23 fractured zones of rock, the builders, recognizing 24 that there was probably going to be leakage to it, 25 put a section of steel liner only at the location Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 136 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 where those two fracture zones were. And when the 3 tunnel was turned on, and when the capacity of the 4 tunnel was reached, and the meters that determine 5 flow going into the tunnel and coming out of the 6 tunnel were analyzed, it was obvious that there was 7 a loss of water through the tunnel. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And if I could 9 just back up a second, and I don't want to take the 10 Council Member Vallone's question from him, but I 11 will just add my own little and value add to it, if 12 I could, Peter, do you mind? 13 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: Actually I'd 14 like to finish my question, Mr. Chairman. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, sure. By 16 all means. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: You've 18 disputed my definition of waste, I call 18 million 19 gallons of unaccounted for water a waste, but 20 despite our differing definitions, I still would 21 like an answer to the question of what has been done 22 to prevent that waste in the future? 23 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Well, to prevent 24 that leakage in the future, I was in the process of 25 giving you the answer when the speaker asked to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 137 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 interrupt. 3 The bottom line is that in 1997, when 4 I became aware of the fact that there was a problem, 5 and that that problem was there, I said I want the 6 leak stopped. And we engaged a consultant to put 7 together a process to determine what was causing the 8 leak and what it would take the solve the leak, and 9 there have been studies done since that time, one of 10 those studies indicates that we needed some internal 11 information, and in order to get that internal 12 information, we entered into a contract with 13 Woodshole Oceanographic Institute to build for us, 14 what you call a submarine and what we call an 15 underwater autonomous vessel, and the purpose of 16 this was to get into the tunnel and to take 17 photographs and to take readings within the tunnel 18 that would tell us and give us more information 19 about where the leak is, what precisely it is, and 20 guide us towards determining how to resolve that 21 problem. 22 In addition to that we agreed that 23 what was necessary, in consonance with our 24 consultants who have been working for us to resolve 25 this issue, that there probably should be some Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 138 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 drilling done outside to determine the extent of the 3 fractures in the rock and how far the zones extend. 4 When I came into this Council when 5 your dad was here originally, I made the statement 6 that we had a contract because the language that I 7 had gotten from my own staff was that we had a 8 contract. And what I was missing was that the 9 contract had not been signed on the date I appeared 10 before the Council, but we had an agreed upon scope 11 of work with Woodshole, we had contract documents 12 drawn up and prepared with Woodshole, and they were 13 being looked at by counsel of the City of New York 14 and counsel for Woodshole to be comfortable where 15 they could sign the contract. 16 The contract was signed shortly after 17 my testimony took place, and I think I testified to 18 the fact, and I apologized to the Committee at that 19 point that I had misspoken, again, based upon 20 information I had. 21 But the answer is that we have, in 22 fact, run a dummy UAV through the tunnel recently, 23 and that dummy UAV was basically a pilot to 24 determine that when the UAV is completed later this 25 year, that if it was inserted into the reservoir and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 139 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 goes down into the tunnel, it will do what we expect 3 it to do and come out at the other end of the 4 tunnel, and we will be able to get the photographs 5 and the pictures that we're looking for, plus the 6 various other data. 7 That's on schedule, on time, we 8 expect to provide that. I would be very pleased to 9 give you a specific presentation on it, if you have 10 any interest, or, again, the Committee, if it has 11 any interest. 12 But we're comfortable it's on time, 13 the pilot vessel did go through, we have taken the 14 preliminary steps. At the time I appeared before 15 the Committee the last time, it was because we had a 16 broken valve which didn't permit us to basically 17 prepare for this test, and at the time I came in and 18 testified that we had repaired that valve, we had 19 sent divers down. 20 Keep in mind, this tunnel is 800 feet 21 below the ground and it's full of water. This is not 22 something that you can walk outside of, spot where 23 the water is coming out and put a clamp or a patch 24 on the outside of it. That's easy. 25 We anticipate it will take us at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 140 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 least another two to three years to reach the 3 endpoint of stopping this leak, but we're bound and 4 determined to do it. We've been working on it 5 steadily ever since I made the commitment to take 6 care of the leak, and I expect that we will reach 7 closure in due course. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: You can 9 answer some of my follow-ups, which were whether the 10 contract was signed, what the completion date is, 11 and whether it's on time. I thank you and I now 12 yield to the Chairman. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 16 Council member. 17 Thank you, Commissioner. 18 Council Member Koppell. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Councilman 20 DeBlasio sort of followed up on it. 21 What my concern is, that the low 22 levels we're at now, that the longer we wait, the 23 worse the situation could be, if, in fact, the rain 24 doesn't come. And I appreciate you doing the rain 25 dance, but I have limited confidence that it will Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 141 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 work. If it did, great. You would make a lot of 3 money, if you could do that. 4 So, I just feel that voluntary 5 restrictions are well and good, I'm certainly not 6 opposed to that, but I think that maybe the time has 7 come for some mandatory restrictions, given the 8 levels that we're at. 9 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I appreciate your 10 interest, your concern, and I know it's heartfelt. 11 The answer is, using the best 12 technical knowledge we've got, and we've got some 13 incredible technical knowledge, we're probably 14 state-of-the-art in the world in what we're dealing 15 with, they're comfortable. 16 Now, I will tell you that the level 17 of usable water in the system has been rising. I 18 would love to see it rise and triple the rate it's 19 rising at, but it is rising. We are not getting into 20 a worse and worse situation, we're getting actually 21 into a better and better situation as time goes by. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Well, I read 23 in the paper this morning this, and one of the 24 things that was quoted was that the snow is melting. 25 Well, there hasn't been all that much snow up there Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 142 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 to begin with. 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: There is no snow 4 up there. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: We're 6 expecting for snow to melt to provide runoff the way 7 it usually does, that isn't happening. 8 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We actually have 9 picked up that snow. What's happened is it actually 10 has been so warm up there that there has been no 11 hard freeze in the mountains. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Right. It did 13 say that in the newspaper this morning, as a reason 14 why the reservoirs were filling up, and there may 15 have been a little -- there was a little snow up 16 there, I've been up there. 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It's gone. I can 18 tell you it's gone. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: It's gone, 20 right. 21 So, the spring runoff is not going to 22 happen. I think you may be being too optimistic. 23 Usually there's a pile of snow up there. It's not 24 there. 25 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I understand Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 143 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 that. And I think what I have to put in place for 3 you is that effectively we consider ten inches of 4 snow to be one inch of rain. We got an inch and a 5 half of rain last week, which is the equivalent, 6 obviously, of about 18 inches of snow. We don't 7 normally get a lot of snow, but there is snow there 8 in the spring. This spring we're going to have to 9 rely upon rainfall, because we've picked up all of 10 the snow fall that we're going to get. 11 But we are comfortable, and I 12 understand where you're coming from, again, the 13 signs that we've got say hold off for at least 14 another month and we will keep looking at it. This 15 is not something we keep looking at once a week, 16 this is looked at every single day and recalculated 17 each day. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: In the normal 19 winter, ice and snow builds up over the winter and 20 then starts to melt in March and April. This year 21 there is not going to be any meltdown because there 22 is nothing to melt. That's my concern. 23 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I understand what 24 you're saying. But let me say it again. If we had 30 25 inches of snow up there, which is not what you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 144 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 normally will get, but you get some snow up there, 3 if you had 30 inches of snow up there, it would be 4 the equivalent of three inches of rainfall, we can 5 get that in a week if we get some reasonable spring 6 rains. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: I frankly 8 hope that you're right, Commissioner, but I say, 9 again, I think it will be better safe than sorry. I 10 see what's happening in New Jersey where the 11 reservoirs are actually dry, and it is somewhat 12 interesting to note that they've established all 13 kinds of restrictions over there that we haven't. 14 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Keep in mind 15 again, as I said earlier, that the capacity in the 16 reservoirs as we speak is in the neighborhood of 264 17 billion gallons. Those Jersey reservoirs don't have 18 anything and they're relying upon pumping from wells 19 essentially, and as they pump from wells the 20 groundwater elevation keeps dropping. 21 They don't have as resilient or as 22 long-lasting a system as the City has, and, again, 23 the credit for that goes to engineers and the City 24 fathers who over the years said that we would have a 25 first class, world class water system, and we do. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 145 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 And that's why we're not in a drought emergency yet 3 where other areas are. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: Just one last 5 point, and you're probably well aware of this. When 6 I was in the Legislature, I fought very hard against 7 giving the state control over the Delaware releases. 8 I don't know if you remember that. 9 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I do remember it, 10 and I appreciate it. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: I fought very 12 hard, but I lost, as you know. 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Yes. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: And I hope 15 that you're talking with the state about Delaware 16 releases -- 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: We are. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER KOPPELL: -- For this 19 spring, because we don't want to see that water 20 going down. I mean, I'm all for canoes, but I'm more 21 interested in people having water to drink. 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I agree with you 23 completely. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 25 Before I get to Council Member Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 146 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Stewart, I just do want to follow up on a question 3 from Councilman Vallone. With regard to the Delaware 4 Aqueduct leak, and, of course, we're all very 5 appreciative of all of the efforts that you've been 6 trying to do to try to, you know, move us forward on 7 that process, but to the average New Yorker, they're 8 looking at a situation where this, the knowledge of 9 the existence of this leak goes back to the Al 10 Appleton days at least -- 11 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Beyond. Well 12 before that. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And so for the 14 average, you know, New Yorker sitting here saying 15 we're losing, you know, depending on what the 16 Delaware Aqueduct is being pumped at, anywhere, even 17 if it's the 18 million gallons a day, that's 18 something on the order of like half a billion 19 gallons a month, so anywhere between half a billion 20 and a billion gallons of water per day being lost 21 through this leak, through this hole, whatever it 22 is, and the City at this time, even though this is 23 more of a decade into it, we still do not possess 24 the technology to even make an assessment of how bad 25 this really is, not even talking about what it's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 147 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 going to do to get the thing fixed. 3 So, this is what the people who pay 4 the water rates are looking at, a hole in the ground 5 leaking a half a billion to a billion gallons a 6 month, and the City doesn't have in its hands yet 7 the ability or the apparatus needed to even give a 8 full assessment of what it's going to take to get 9 this thing fixed. 10 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That really is an 11 unfair -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I understand, 13 but I'm just saying, but this is the reality that 14 certainly, you know, precedes your time and, you 15 know, you've been active on it and God bless you for 16 that, however, this is what the people, you know, in 17 the cheap seats are looking at. 18 COMMISSIONER MIELE: The people who 19 count, the citizens and the residents of the City of 20 New York, I cannot deny that before I got here there 21 was a belief that 38 million gallons or 30 million 22 gallons, or 20, whatever it might be, is fine, it 23 meets within the standards, it's well within the 24 percentages of other cities, and we're very 25 comfortable with it. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 148 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 When I got here, I said it's 3 unconscionable, that you've got to do something with 4 it. The problem is that the process is not a 5 two-month process, and it's not like fixing a leak 6 in the street. It's a long, elaborate process, and 7 the first thing we have to do is determine the 8 proper approach to do it and then do it. 9 We're in the process of determining 10 the proper approach to do it, and we expect to have 11 that data by next year, and then in the normal 12 course of business, as the City does, we'll let a 13 contract, and we'll get a contractor and we'll move 14 forward to do it. 15 I point out to you that since the 16 Delaware provides half of our water in the normal 17 course of business, when we do the repair, if it 18 requires us to shut down the Delaware, we're going 19 to have to make plans to provide the City with 20 adequate water, probably by maximizing the Croton 21 system, and probably by doing it at a point in time 22 when the Delaware system generally provides very 23 little of the water anyhow. 24 Before we close, if we are -- 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, well, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 149 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 actually I have to go to Council Member Stewart, but 3 I just want to say that this is something that 4 Council Member Vallone and I, and I'm sure the rest 5 of the members of the Committee, look forward to a 6 future hearing on this topic. We have got to follow 7 up on that work, an we've got to see what we can do 8 to get, you know, into the City's hands as soon as 9 possible, the technology they need to make an 10 assessment on this thing and move forward. We're 11 tired of waiting, you're tired of waiting, so let's 12 move this thing forward together, and with that, 13 I'll defer to Council Member Stewart. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Thank you, 15 Mr. Chair. 16 Thank you for allowing me to sit on 17 this Committee today, because I came down here -- 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I would just 19 like to mention that Council Member Stewart is not a 20 member of the Committee, that's what he's referring 21 to, but it certainly is a pleasure to have you. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Right. As I 23 sit here, I heard about -- earlier I heard the 24 testimony of someone else who said that there are 25 75,000 meters that are defective at any given time, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 150 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 causing waste and also what we call guesstimated 3 bills, and ultimately irate residents. 4 What I would like to know is, you 5 haven't said anything about that, and how do you 6 intend to correct that problem? 7 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Council Member, 8 I'm told that the number you're quoting is a number 9 that includes defective remote reading devices, 10 which means the meters themselves are fine, but so 11 we don't bother the people within the building, we 12 have a remote device that comes outside so our 13 inspectors can read the meter from outside and not 14 have to enter the premises. 15 Occasionally kids will plug those, 16 occasionally the weather will create a problem, we 17 were not happy with the first group that we put in, 18 we've had modifications, and to make a long story 19 short, the fact that a meter is defective doesn't 20 mean that there's any untorrid use of water, nor is 21 there any real lost revenue, because what we do in a 22 case like that is go back and look at prior records 23 of readings and come up with an estimated bill that 24 approximates the normal usage of water that's been 25 used in the prior periods of time. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 151 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 So, we don't lose water by it, we 3 don't lose revenue by it; on the other hand, we're 4 not happy to have that kind of problem, and we do 5 want to reduce that, so we're constantly looking at 6 more equipment, and we're constantly asking our 7 inspectors to check the equipment as they go out 8 there to take a look at it. We pretty much will work 9 with it. 10 Now, in the last two years, we've 11 reached a point where instead of our inspectors, the 12 people who used to go out and read the meters for 13 the City, those people no longer read the meters. 14 We've gotten a contract with Con Edison who now 15 reads their own meters, and our meters throughout 16 the entire city, and all of the people who used to 17 read meters have been retrained to repair meters and 18 to repair these repeating devices, and we have 19 increased the number of people who were available to 20 do that to the point where we're very comfortable we 21 can take down the problem. 22 So, if that answers your question, we 23 have as much concern and interest about it as you 24 do, but we're not losing water and we're not losing 25 money, and what we are interested in doing is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 152 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 getting more efficient at how we repair those meters 3 and those repeaters. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER STEWART: Thank you. 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 6 Councilman. 7 I just have to make some apologies to 8 Mr. Bob Alpern, Mr. Dave Lutz and Dr. Arnold 9 Wendroff, we're not going to be able to get to your 10 testimony today, unfortunately. I deeply regret 11 that. I will be glad to meet with you afterwards and 12 put you on first at the next hearing. We'll work out 13 some way so that you can get your views before the 14 Committee, but this is a very pressing topic and it 15 took up a little more time than we wanted. 16 If I just could, Commissioner, just 17 follow up on, with regard to the filtration systems 18 that will be installed on the -- 19 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Wells? 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: On the wells, I 21 wasn't aware of the fact that -- because you 22 answered my question that which you indicated that 23 you're going to put the sort of stand-alone modular 24 filtration devices right on each, you know, pumping 25 site, but then it will be one or two centrally Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 153 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 located, you know, filtration -- 3 COMMISSIONER MIELE: In the final 4 project -- 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER MIELE: -- If we move 7 ahead with it, which would give us the ability to 8 move 100 million gallons, if we provide one or two 9 central filtering systems, then that will occur. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But would those 11 central filtering systems adjunct the ones that are 12 done at the site or they would replace? 13 COMMISSIONER MIELE: No, they would 14 replace them. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, because I 16 was wondering whether or not -- 17 COMMISSIONER MIELE: That's the 18 answer. Instead of sending the water directly into 19 distribution from the individual well heads now as 20 we do -- 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, fine. 22 COMMISSIONER MIELE: It will go into a 23 manifold, go through the plant and then go into 24 distribution. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, two more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 154 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 things, and I've got to get off, because we have the 3 other hearing that has to come in. 4 Do you believe that you can operate 5 the Chelsea Pump Station without, you know, 6 violating protocols or laws or whatever, or are you 7 putting into the filtration avoidance situation 8 where we lose the filtration avoidance? 9 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Our conversations 10 with the State to date indicate that we can come to 11 closure on doing that, we anticipate doing so. We 12 have already talked about a preliminary draft 13 document, you know, to do that, and we're 14 comfortable with most of the criteria that are 15 outlined in that. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, you think 17 that you can operate the Chelsea Pump Station and 18 still maintain -- 19 COMMISSIONER MIELE: If we need to. 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO:-- And still 21 maintain filtration avoidance; is that your 22 testimony? 23 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Absolutely, 24 that's my testimony. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 155 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COMMISSIONER MIELE: If I may, before 3 we close -- 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER MIELE: The public should 6 realize that we are perfectly willing to send them a 7 water conservation kit at no cost which contains 8 showerheads using restricted flow, and filters on 9 the sink and adapters to reduce the amount of water 10 used per flush in a high-flush toilet. So, if 11 they're interested, they can get in touch with the 12 Department by calling 718-DEP-HELP, and we will take 13 names and addresses and individual apartment owners 14 or residents can do that. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And I also 16 imagine that this would be available on the web site 17 as well? 18 COMMISSIONER MIELE: I believe it is 19 available on the website, yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Terrific. 21 COMMISSIONER MIELE: But the point is 22 everyone can do that and that will all help save 23 water. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Terrific. Thank 25 you very much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 156 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 COMMISSIONER MIELE: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Before I adjourn 4 the hearing, I want to recognize the presence in the 5 Chamber of former Mayor Ed Koch. 6 Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor, for 7 gracing us with your presence. Thank you very much. 8 The hearing is adjourned. 9 (The following written testimony was 10 read into the record.) 11 12 13 Written Testimony Of: 14 Michael Lockhart 15 President 16 American Telephone and Utility Consultants 17 - and - 18 The Coalition for Water Bill Justice 19 20 The Coalition for Water Bill Justice 21 250 W 57th St., Suite 1225 22 New York, NY 10107 23 (212) 581-1644 24 (212) 245-2250 Fax 25 www.waterbilljustice.com Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 157 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 3 Testimony before NYC Council Committee on 4 Environmental Protection on 2/25/02 Water 5 Conservation Measures In Response to the City's 6 Issuance of a Drought Warning 7 8 Good morning. My name is Michael 9 Lockhart. I am the President of American Telephone 10 and Utility Consu      !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy{|}~ltants, a company that has been 11 auditing utility bills in NYC since 1990. I am also 12 the founder and chairman of the Coalition for Water 13 Bill Justice, a grassroots organization that 14 represents water customers, businesses, building 15 owners, and civic associations throughout New York 16 City. The Coalition was established in April 2000 to 17 advocate fair billing practices for NYC water 18 customers. 19 At a Water Board meeting last summer, 20 DEP revealed the following statistics concerning the 21 city's 826,000 metered water customers: 22 -75,000 water meters currently need 23 repair or replacement. 24 - 50,000 outstanding work orders, 25 including Leak and Waste Inspection and Reading Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 158 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Verifications. 3 - 1,800 DEP contractor meter 4 replacements need inspection. 5 - 600 plumber-installed meters need 6 inspection. 7 The consequences of these statistics 8 are startling. A backlog of 75,000 broken meters 9 translates into 75,000 guesstimated bills. Many of 10 which end up becoming billing disputes with 11 customers. 12 But worse now with the drought 13 situation, when a meter stops recording the actual 14 usage, the property owner loses his/her incentive to 15 conserve water. That is because no matter how much 16 they use, they end up getting a bill based on a 17 historical usage, rather than the real usage. 18 Therefore, there is little motivation to conserve. 19 Furthermore, with a broken meter, you 20 lose the ability to determine if there are leaks on 21 the premises since a water meter is one of the best 22 tools in the industry for determining leaks. 23 And lastly, the 50,000 outstanding 24 work orders, including Leak & Waste Inspections, 25 means that a tremendous amount of customers are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 159 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 continuously wasting water, while they await 3 assistance from DEP in identifying and locating 4 leaks and waste. 5 By the way, I am unaware of the 6 updated statistics. Hopefully they have improved, 7 but I fear that they haven't. 8 Although both residential and 9 commercial landlords have little control over the 10 bathroom habits of their tenants, there are still 11 things that can be done to encourage conservation. 12 Here are two suggestions that DEP can undertake to 13 induce conservation: 14 -1. DEP should quickly roll out and 15 promote the toilet rebate program and offer it to 16 all customers large and small, not just the ones 17 participating in the Multi-Family Conservation 18 Program. I suggested this about one year ago, the 19 last time I testified before this committee. It has 20 been talked about at Water Board hearings but has 21 still yet to be implemented. 22 2. Encourage the installation of 23 low-consumption toilets, faucets, and showerheads 24 through rate plan design. Essentially a discount 25 could be offered to low-consumption fixture Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 160 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 complaint properties on metered billing. For 3 example: 4 Percentage of low-consumption 5 fixtures. 6 100 percent. FY 2003 discount: 5 7 percent. FY 2004 discount 10 percent. FY 2005 8 discount: 15 percent. FY 2006 discount: 20 percent. 9 FY 2007 discount: 25 percent. 10 Percentage of low-consumption 11 fixtures. 12 90 percent. FY 2003 4 percent. FY 13 2004: 8 percent. FY 2005: 12 percent. FY 2006: 16 14 percent. FY 2007: 20 percent. 15 Percentage of low-consumption 16 fixtures. 17 80 percent. FY 2003: 3 percent. FY 18 2004: 6 percent. FY 2005: 9 percent. FY 2006: 12 19 percent. FY 2007: 15 percent. 20 70 percent. FY 2003 2 percent. FY 21 2004: 4 percent. FY 2005: 6 percent. FY 2006: 8 22 percent. FY 2007: 10 percent. 23 60 percent. FY 2003: 1 percent. FY 24 2004: 2 percent. FY 2005: 3 percent. FY 2006: 4 25 percent. FY 2007: 5 percent. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 161 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Under 60 percent. FY 2003: 0 percent. 3 FY 2004: 0 percent. FY 2005: 0 percent. FY 2006: 0 4 percent. FY 2007: 0 percent. 5 The above plan phases in the 6 discount. Alternatively, it might be easier to 7 administer if it were implemented in one shot, 8 rather than being phased in. However, if that were 9 the case, there would need to be at least a one-year 10 grace period to allow building owners time to plan 11 the installation of low-consumption fixtures. This 12 idea could be handled similar to the way the annual 13 surcharge was handled for frontage properties 14 refusing to put in meters. 15 One might argue that the current rate 16 design already encourages owners to install 17 low-consumption fixtures since the more they use, 18 the more they pay. However, since a significant 19 portion of properties don't have low-consumption 20 fixtures, one can presume that the current rate 21 design isn't sufficiently offering enough of an 22 inducement to install low-consumption fixtures. From 23 the feedback I have received over the years, here 24 are some of the reasons why owner/managers resist 25 installation of low-consumption fixtures: Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 162 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 1. Owners/managers doubt that their 3 bills will actually decrease significantly to make 4 the effort worthwhile. [With a two rate system as 5 I've proposed, the savings will be indisputable.] 6 2. Some owners/managers heard tales 7 about low-consumption toilets requiring several 8 flushes to be effective, thus causing the 9 consumption to increase rather than decrease. 10 3. Low-flow showerheads also gained 11 the poorly deserved reputation of restricting the 12 water too greatly. 13 4. Owner/managers aren't able to 14 outlay money to change fixtures. 15 By instituting a new rate structure 16 that more strongly encourages the installation of 17 low-consumption fixtures such as the one I've 18 proposed, the above four objections will be overcome 19 since there will be indisputable savings that 20 owner/managers would see on their bills. 21 With better weather and more 22 aggressive conservation efforts, hopefully future 23 droughts could be prevented or at least delayed. 24 Although the drought is clearly the 25 most important issue concerning water at this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 163 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 juncture, there are still many other important 3 issues that I hope this new committee will also 4 address. First, water customers continue to be 5 overcharged frequently. And second and worst of all, 6 800,000 water customers citywide face a growing 7 assortment of what many critics consider to be 8 unfair billing policies and limitations. 9 An example is the provision allowing 10 water to be shut off to residences with unpaid 11 bills, which raises ethical and safety issues. 12 Another example is DEP's refusal to pay interest on 13 customer refunds, despite charging customers 14 interest on unpaid bills. 15 And with regards to the shutoff 16 policy, I realize that the Water Board needs to 17 improve collections in order to keep water rates 18 down. I also understand that this current Water 19 Board and DEP administration adopted the shut-off 20 regulation with the intent to use it against 21 commercial properties, and not against residential 22 customers. However, my concern is that one day, a 23 more aggressive water board decides to use this 24 life-threatening weapon against residential 25 customers. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 164 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 Therefore, if this regulation is only 3 intended for commercial properties, let's rewrite it 4 to specifically exclude residential properties. 5 Of more immediate concern is the 6 policy regarding the timeframe for customers to 7 contest errors on their water bills. In 1999, the 8 Board approved a rule that slashed the traditional 9 six-year statute of limitations for customer billing 10 complaints to just two years. 11 The DEP watchdog group that I 12 founded, the Coalition for Water Bill Justice, 13 worked aggressively to overturn this rule, 14 eventually taking the issue to the State 15 Legislature. 16 On November 13, 2001, a bill was 17 signed into law establishing a four-year complaint 18 period. Unfortunately, it was a compromise of the 19 six-year period that consumers deserved and the 20 two-year period that DEP wanted. 21 Four years is still an adequate 22 complaint period, because billing errors can be very 23 difficult to detect. Billing overcharges can result 24 from mathematical miscalculations, bills on 25 non-existent meters, overlapping billing periods, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 165 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 meter multiplier errors, overestimated bills on 3 broken meters, and bills calculated using incorrect 4 rates. 5 Quite simply, most consumers can 6 barely understand their bills, let alone verify 7 their accuracy. Most cannot determine if their meter 8 is malfunctioning, mor do they have the knowledge of 9 the rates and policies affecting their bills. 10 Further, they do not have access to 11 the sophisticated computer programs that readily 12 calculate and recalculate bills. And let's not 13 forget, they need to be able to read and fully 14 understand them in English. 15 Regardless, why should the burden of 16 checking the bill for accuracy fall upon the 17 customer? 18 The only beneficiaries of this rule 19 change are DEP administrators who have been relieved 20 of handling complaints. 21 Consumers, on the other hand, are 22 being denied refunds that they deserve. Restoring 23 the six-year rule will give DEP an incentive to fix 24 problems in the billing system and thereby reduce 25 billing complaints. This is a fairer and more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 166 1 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 2 reasonable way to reduce complaints than limiting 3 customers from making complaints. 4 Thank you. 5 (Hearing concluded at 1:00 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 167 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 11 State of New York, do hereby certify that the 12 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the 13 within proceeding. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 related to any of the parties to this action by 16 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 17 interested in the outcome of this matter. 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand this 25th day of February 2002. 20 21 22 23 24 --------------------- 25 CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 168 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified Shorthand 10 Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of 11 New York, do hereby certify the aforesaid to be a 12 true and accurate copy of the transcription of the 13 audio tapes of this hearing. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ----------------------- CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 ;<GHuv!"OP[\]^=]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]8=>lmnoz{LM56qrst  >?klmno]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]8opqr - . / 0 ; < V W     > ? 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